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richkelsey.org
Post  Post subject: Ignorant scholars @ SHIELDS  |  Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 10:28 am
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God of Elves, Seer Stones and a Hat

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SCHIELDS Scholarly & Historical Information Exchange for Latter-Day Saints

The SHIELDS site, despite its name, is not a good place to go to find "Scholarly & Historical Information" on Mormonism.
What is offered is cover-up, doubletalk, & half-truths.

Here is an example:

Speaking of Joseph Smith's 1826 Glass Looking Trial:
Quote:
"The court record he mentions is merely a ledger notation by a justice of the peace who noted that he had charged a specific amount to look into the case. While it probably was our Joseph Smith, no one can be certain, since there were several people of that name living in the region." http://www.shields-research.org/Critics ... belief.htm

If there is any doubt about which trial is being discussed, at the close of the above quoted paragraph a link is provided for further study entitled: Malin Jacobs' discussion of the "1826 Trial"

Notice the words in the above quote: "a justice of the peace".

The court docket in question has the name of the "justice of the peace" spelled out on it, and his name is Justice Albert Neely. Photo: http://richkelsey.org/1826_bill_of_just ... neely.html

There is overwhelming evidence to connect the Joseph Smith of Mormonism to the 1826 trial/hearing, involving Justice Albert Neely. Perhaps this is why the article @ SHIELDS leaves out the name of the "justice of the peace"

By doing so, seeds of doubt are sown in the hearts and minds of the faithful.

I can envision an LDS wife speaking to her husband saying,

"See honey, 'no one can be certain' that our Joseph Smith is the Joseph Smith mentioned on the docket from the 1826 Glass Looking Trial."

(sigh)

Notable LDS Attorney, Gordon A. Madsen, who wrote: “Joseph Smith’s 1826 Trial: The Legal Setting," (BYU Studies), has no doubt who the Joseph Smith is on the court docket: https://ojs.lib.byu.edu/spc/index.php/B ... /5859/5509

Are the supposed scholars @ SHIELDS really as ignorant as they would have us believe?

And, if so, why would we come to them for answers?

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Rich Kelsey


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productofchoice
Post  Post subject: Re: Ignorant scholars @ SHIELDS  |  Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 1:04 pm
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Hi Rich,

On Mormonthink.org there a quote from Richard Bushman:
Quote:
Richard Bushman: I think that for the Church to remain strong it has to reconstruct its narrative. The dominant narrative is not true; it can't be sustained. The Church has to absorb all this new information or it will be on very shaky grounds and that's what it is trying to do and it will be a strain for a lot of people, older people especially. But I think it has to change.


Curious how that proceeds.

Peace

_________________
I resigned from the Church of THE Jesus Christ of the Latter Day Saints (Feb 2011)

"For nothing is secret, that shall not be made manifest; neither any thing hid, that shall not be known and come abroad." - Luke 8:17


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richkelsey.org
Post  Post subject: Re: Ignorant scholars @ SHIELDS  |  Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 3:30 pm
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productofchoice wrote:
Hi Rich,

On Mormonthink.org there a quote from Richard Bushman:
Quote:
Richard Bushman: I think that for the Church to remain strong it has to reconstruct its narrative. The dominant narrative is not true; it can't be sustained. The Church has to absorb all this new information or it will be on very shaky grounds and that's what it is trying to do and it will be a strain for a lot of people, older people especially. But I think it has to change.


Curious how that proceeds.

Peace

productofchoice

Bushman knows too much.

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My LDS Series:
http://www.richkelsey.org/lds_index.html
Rich Kelsey


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Abinadi
Post  Post subject: Re: Ignorant scholars @ SHIELDS  |  Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2016 10:52 pm
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Hi, Rich. When Steven Shields first starting publishing "Divergent Paths of the Restoration" and his newsletter, I was an avid fan. I thought he was being fairly objective in his treatment of the many, many "divergencies" in Mormon history. Through his work, I was able to make contact with, communicate with, and visit many people from different factions of Mormonism. It was an exciting time for me.

Then, at some point, I read that he had switched to the RLDS church. Given his awareness of the, I don't know the word - the instability of the overall Mormon movement, and the inconsistencies of doctrines and testimonies - I was surprised to see him join the RLDS. When I heard that he had been ordained a Seventy, I thought I might have a clue as to the cause of his conversion. But who is to say, for I cannot see into a man's heart.

For a time, his work seemed very good. When he became RLDS, I noticed a slant, a diminishment of quality. Then he handed the work over to - I forgot, maybe his son - and after a while, I just stopped reading it. It's probably just me, but I no longer had as much interest in what was being written, and it seemed I could discover new branches and contact them on my own as fast as they could put out their newsletter. And Shields seemed to have become noticeably prejudiced in how he described certain churches and individuals, including people managing exmormon websites. Oh, how the mighty are fallen. Even if, as with Adam, they have fallen "up" in church hierarchy.

And now, I am at the odd, loveable-hateable state where Mormonism has become almost a petty issue. There is no cord around my neck. I have violated no genuine covenants made with God, I have dishonored nothing and no one, and I am pursuing Truth more truthfully than I could have done and was doing as a Mormon whose leaders proscribed books I could not read, churches I could not visit, and people I could not associate with.


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richkelsey.org
Post  Post subject: Re: Ignorant scholars @ SHIELDS  |  Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2016 12:56 am
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God of Elves, Seer Stones and a Hat

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Hi Abinadi.

It's always good to hear from you.

Your words are refreshing:
Quote:
"I am pursuing Truth more truthfully than I could have done and was doing as a Mormon whose leaders proscribed books I could not read, churches I could not visit, and people I could not associate with."

I'm doing the same thing brother, "pursuing Truth."

Sometimes I get frustrated with people who throw up smokescreens to obscure the Truth; like the author John A. Tvedtnes of the article who said, "no one can be certain" [if the Joseph Smith on the 1826 trial docket was the founder of Mormonism]

For crying out loud, the distinguished Dr. Purple who was asked to take notes at the trial by Justice Albert Neely wrote:
Quote:
Joseph Smith, Sr., was present, and sworn as a witness. He confessed at great length all that his son had said in his examination. He delineated his characteristics in his youthful days-his visions of the luminous stones in the glass--his visit to visit to Lake Erie in search of the stone--and his wonderful triumphs as a seer.

He also wrote about
Quote:
"Joseph Smith, Jr., the author of the Golden Bible, or the Books of Mormon."

Making it very clear that the person being examined was the author of the Book of Mormon, that his father was also called Joseph Smith & that the person who hired Joseph Smith to look for treasure was named Isaiah Stowell, also known as Josiah Stowell.

(Note: most accounts have Deacon Stowell's first name as Josiah, here is an example: http://richkelsey.org/benton_account.htm; however, in the ARTICLES OF AGREEMENT document his name is written out both as Isaiah & Josiah; see: http://richkelsey.org/1826%20agreement.htm

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Rich Kelsey


Last edited by richkelsey.org on Tue Jul 26, 2016 7:43 am, edited 1 time in total.


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Abinadi
Post  Post subject: Re: Ignorant scholars @ SHIELDS  |  Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2016 4:06 pm
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True, Rich. Mormons must have "denialism" as an integral part of their belief.

I'd like to correct my comments about Shields. I seem to recall that before he joined the RLDS, he was not as objective as I remembered. He did favor his denomination - Utah Mormonism (Benson, Hinckley, etc. He was not as objective as I thought I had remembered, yet the information he gave was . . . rich and rewarding... :)


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richkelsey.org
Post  Post subject: Re: Ignorant scholars @ SHIELDS  |  Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2016 3:32 pm
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For those who care:

Several witness testimonies concerning a money digging operation involving Joseph Smith contained the word,

"enchantment."

Martin Harris used the word to describe why the money diggers gave up digging:

“… and then he [Joseph Smith] told them the enchantment was so strong that he could not see, and they gave it up.” (Joel Tiffany, Interview with Martin Harris, in Tiffany's Monthly, 1859, New York, p.163-164)

Joseph Smith had been hired by Josiah Stowell to help find buried treasure; his job involved looking into a seer-stone. [also known as a "glass"]

What Martin Harris meant by,

"... he could not see,"

was that at one point during the money digging operation, Smith claimed he could no longer see where the treasure was due to the evil spirit who had the treasure under its charge.

What Harris said lines up with statements from Joseph and Hiel Lewis concerning what they witnessed while Joseph Smith was peeping for money in their neighborhood:

"Their digging in several places was in compliance with peeper Smith's revelations, who would attend with his peep-stone in his hat, and his hat drawn over his face, and would tell them how deep they would have to go; but when they would find no trace of the chest of money, he would peep again, and weep like a child, and tell them the enchantment had removed it on account of some sin or thoughtless word; finally the enchantment became so strong that he could not see, and so the business was abandoned." (The Amboy Journal, Amboy, Illinois, Wednesday, April 30, 1879, page 1.)

On this subject Alva Hale [Emma’s brother] said:

"... Joe Smith never handled one shovel full of earth in those diggings. All that Smith did was to peep with stone and hat, and give directions where and how to dig, and when and where the enchantment moved the treasure." (Review of Mormonism: Rejoinder to Elder Cadwell, Amboy Journal (IL), June 11, 1879)

It was this Joseph Smith who was brought before a court in 1826.

Compare the truth with what is published @ SHIELDS:

"The court record he mentions is merely a ledger notation by a justice of the peace who noted that he had charged a specific amount to look into the case. While it probably was our Joseph Smith, no one can be certain, since there were several people of that name living in the region." http://www.shields-research.org/Critics ... belief.htm

(sigh)

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My LDS Series:
http://www.richkelsey.org/lds_index.html
Rich Kelsey


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Abinadi
Post  Post subject: Re: Ignorant scholars @ SHIELDS  |  Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:47 pm
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I apologize to everyone for my mistaking "SHIELDS" with the RLDS 70 Steven Shields.


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richkelsey.org
Post  Post subject: Re: Ignorant scholars @ SHIELDS  |  Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2016 9:30 pm
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Abinadi wrote:
I apologize to everyone for my mistaking "SHIELDS" with the RLDS 70 Steven Shields.

Abinadi.

Given your history with reading works from a man named Shields, then seeing the name SHIELDS, and at first thinking there was a connection is an easy mistake to make.

You have been a great help to me over the years with your wisdom and insight; and, especially your knowledge of certain early LDS works which if not for you I may have never read.

It was only after you quoted a section from An Address To All Believers in Christ, that I read the entire work and realized what a bombshell of a work it is. That, along with reading Joseph Knight's history & quotes from Martin Harris and other early LDS works by JS, led me to understand early Mormonism from a much more accurate perspective, than if I had never read those works.

My hope is that others will glean insight from your wisdom.

And, I wish one LDS Missionary which I have corresponded with over the last 30 plus years had shown one percent of the integrity which you have shown on this board.

Rich


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productofchoice
Post  Post subject: Re: Ignorant scholars @ SHIELDS  |  Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2016 8:31 am
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People who think they have the truth will no longer pursue the truth.

There is no searching for continuing revelation.
No searching for the nuances.

Alternatives become annoyances ... because any change means they need to get back up and dive back in.

Peace

_________________
I resigned from the Church of THE Jesus Christ of the Latter Day Saints (Feb 2011)

"For nothing is secret, that shall not be made manifest; neither any thing hid, that shall not be known and come abroad." - Luke 8:17


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Abinadi
Post  Post subject: Re: Ignorant scholars @ SHIELDS  |  Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2016 9:49 pm
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Thanks kindly, Rich.


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Klaus1787
Post  Post subject: Re: Ignorant scholars @ SHIELDS  |  Posted: Mon Aug 22, 2016 12:49 pm
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SHIELDS:

Simpletons
Have
Irrelevant
Explanations for
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Day
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