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teoma2
Post  Post subject: Any one watch Jeremy Runnell's "leaked" video of his so  |  Posted: Thu Apr 21, 2016 4:49 pm
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called church (small c) court proceedings?

Considering the stonewalling that occurred, he did very well in presenting his position.

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Melanie
Post  Post subject: Re: Any one watch Jeremy Runnell's "leaked" video of his so  |  Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 5:32 pm
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Can you post a link? :)

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productofchoice
Post  Post subject: Re: Any one watch Jeremy Runnell's "leaked" video of his so  |  Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2016 7:28 am
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http://www.mormonthink.com/ has info on it. Text plus links.

Peace

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richkelsey.org
Post  Post subject: Re: Any one watch Jeremy Runnell's "leaked" video of his so  |  Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2016 1:36 pm
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Hi Productofchoice.

I followed the link and downloaded the letter in question.

I really like the letter's spirit, its content; and, the heartfelt conclusion. The man had found things he wanted answers to, and after looking for answers @ LDS.org he could find none. Then, he went to Church authorities and although he got promises that answers would come, they did not. What he got was advice to stop questioning, knowing that in the afterlife the answers would be forthcoming.

FAIR did address his letter but he called their response "... comical ..."

He also questioned the apologist's reputation @ FAIR; because their answers went against what he had been taught for the last 20 years.

Is it possible that the man had failed to realize that for the Church to be true, everything he had learned from the Church up to that point, needed to be considered false. Including much of what can be found at LDS.org today.

This brother having not found a way to compartmentalize his LDS faith, ended up "Excommunicated the Church."

The bottom line: The work he put together is chalk-full of solid clear-cut answers: http://cesletter.com/


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richkelsey.org
Post  Post subject: Re: Any one watch Jeremy Runnell's "leaked" video of his so  |  Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2016 2:15 am
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Daniel C. Peterson provides Some Reflections On That Letter To a CES Director; here is a short section from his work:
Quote:
"It is wearisome reading and, at point after point, multiple times per page, I was exasperated. My impression is that the author is someone who had leanings in more of what you might call a fundamentalist direction than my own, but he was blindsided by things that he was learning about history and historical difficulties that he had not encountered before. He lost his trust and felt betrayed, and so he’s in a position now, where anybody speaking on behalf of the Church is probably lying. So, what I say today will not be of much value or interest except to make him mad.

But, I’m not really addressing him. I’m addressing people who might run into these things and are still puzzled by the charges that he makes. As I say, it’s a kind of compendium, not original at all…not really pretending to originality. It’s a compendium of charges and accusations. My impression—I will give you the bottom line–is that the author spent too little time and effort looking at these questions, that he “jumped ship” too soon, that there are answers, at least adequate, and in some cases really much more than adequate to just about every issue raised." — http://www.fairmormon.org/perspectives/ ... s-director

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productofchoice
Post  Post subject: Re: Any one watch Jeremy Runnell's "leaked" video of his so  |  Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2016 5:55 am
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Why should someone have to spend more time, energy, researching, etc contemplating leaving than they spend contemplating joining?

Peace

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teoma2
Post  Post subject: Re: Any one watch Jeremy Runnell's "leaked" video of his so  |  Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2016 11:49 am
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Why? Apparently, to gain reassurance that their new choices and perspectives are correct for themselves, that's why....

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richkelsey.org
Post  Post subject: Re: Any one watch Jeremy Runnell's "leaked" video of his so  |  Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2016 12:14 pm
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In the "Letter To a CES Director" the author points out that no archaeological evidence for the Book of Mormon has been found; including any armor, or other evidence for the final battles at the Hill Cumorah in New York.

Daniel C. Peterson explains:

"The Limited Geography Model has been created because the Book of Mormon demands it. You can put together all the travel distances and travel times in the Book of Mormon and it’s very clear that they’re not going very far in any direction. ... It can easily be shown that the limited Mesoamerican model has been in the works for decades. It just wasn’t published until the 1980s, but it existed and was distributed in a kind of underground form for a long time before it was actually published."

One the subject of missing archaeological evidence, two LDS Elders told me that the Church was right on the verge of discovering, or, making known the discovery of Book of Mormon cities in Central American. That was four years ago.

Then, last year an LDS spokesman told me:

"We know where the City of Zarahemla is!"

So, I asked him:

"Where is the City of Zarahemla?"

His reply:

"I'm not going to tell you."

Since then I have discovered where all of the archaeological evidence, which proves that the Book of Mormon is true, can be found: In the hearts and minds of the faithful; manifested in their testimonies.

"I do believe." "I do believe."

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productofchoice
Post  Post subject: Re: Any one watch Jeremy Runnell's "leaked" video of his so  |  Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2016 12:55 pm
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The problem with the limited geography view placing the BoM in Central America is that Joseph Smith and others said it wasn't there.

So Peterson is contradicting Joseph Smith and many other Prophets. Peterson should be excommunicated for continuing to teach against the prophet. The Hill Camorah in New York is that very important Hill Camorah spoken of in the BoM. The mounds scattered across North America were identified as being relics of the BoM people.

For some quotes from those LDS Leaders, see:
http://www.mormonthink.com/book-of-morm ... tm#cumorah


Peace

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"For nothing is secret, that shall not be made manifest; neither any thing hid, that shall not be known and come abroad." - Luke 8:17


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richkelsey.org
Post  Post subject: Re: Any one watch Jeremy Runnell's "leaked" video of his so  |  Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2016 1:46 pm
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productofchoice wrote:
The problem with the limited geography view placing the BoM in Central America is that Joseph Smith and others said it wasn't there.

So Peterson is contradicting Joseph Smith and many other Prophets. Peterson should be excommunicated for continuing to teach against the prophet. The Hill Camorah in New York is that very important Hill Camorah spoken of in the BoM. The mounds scattered across North America were identified as being relics of the BoM people.

For some quotes from those LDS Leaders, see:
http://www.mormonthink.com/book-of-morm ... tm#cumorah


Peace

productofchoice,

I know all that. Yet, I am glad that you spelled out what you did and left a link.

As I mentioned in my first post in this thread:

"Is it possible that ... for the Church to be true, everything he had learned from the Church up to that point, needed to be considered false. Including much of what can be found at LDS.org today."

How anyone can hold the limited geography view and still have faith in the Church is beyond me!

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richkelsey.org
Post  Post subject: Re: Any one watch Jeremy Runnell's "leaked" video of his so  |  Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2016 6:23 am
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For those reading who may be unfamiliar with early Church claims about the Book of Mormon's final great battle of extinction, here is a quote from the Journal of Discourses:
Quote:
"Finally, they became so utterly wicked, so fully ripened for destruction, that one branch of the nation, called the Nephites, gathered their entire people around the hill Cumorah, in the State of New York , in Ontario County; and the Lamanites, the opposite army, gathered by millions in the same region. The two nations were four years in gathering their forces, during which no fighting took place; but at the end of that time, having marshalled all their hosts, the fighting commenced, the Lamanites coming upon the Nephites, and destroying all of them, except a very few, who had previously deserted over to the Lamanites. — Apostle Orson Pratt, April 6, 1874 Journal of Discourses Vol. 17, pg. 24

The Elders who spoke to me four years ago claimed that the battle took place in Mesoamerica; and, that after the battle Moroni traveled to the Cumorah to bury the plates.

They seemed really excited about this new understanding.

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productofchoice
Post  Post subject: Re: Any one watch Jeremy Runnell's "leaked" video of his so  |  Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2016 7:37 am
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Didn't you know that there was back in the 1874 era a in the southern part of Mexico there was region called Nuevo lloco new with an Ontarrio district. One of the locals kept saying in broken English, "Come ora here." Missionaries thought they said Camorah Hill which any good English speaker transposes as Hill Camorah. Clear proof that the BoM is true.

Peace

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richkelsey.org
Post  Post subject: Re: Any one watch Jeremy Runnell's "leaked" video of his so  |  Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2016 9:13 am
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Hi productofchoice.

During The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints 2010 Book of Mormon Convention, the events which took place in the Book of Mormon were clearly understood to have happened in one of three places:
 Mesoamerica
 South America
or,
 in the American heartland
Quote:
"Scholars gathered in Provo, Utah, to discuss their theories about where the events described in the Book of Mormon took place. Some placed the Nephite capital city Zarahemla in Mesoamerica, others in South America. Others argued for a setting in the American heartland." (The fight over Book of Mormon geography, Michael De Groote, Deseret News, May 27 2010)

As I said before, Book of Mormon geography can be found:

"In the hearts and minds of the faithful; manifested in their testimonies."

And, the one thing the Elders taught me was that testimony trumps everything; unless of course that testimony comes from an LDS Apostle; in that case it is considered: "speculation." Or, if it was printed in the Ensign Magazine; in that case it is called: "Supposition."

Pinning a Mormon down on fundamental doctrine is like nailing Jell-O to the wall; it just isn't going to happen.

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productofchoice
Post  Post subject: Re: Any one watch Jeremy Runnell's "leaked" video of his so  |  Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2016 10:32 am
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It just seems that of all people who would know, Joseph Smith should be the most knowledgeable about the location of the BoM People. He saw the visions, he spoke to the angels, he was taught by them. They shared all sorts of extra information that we don't have ... and he shared it with those close to him.

The farther we get from the source the less reliable the information becomes. To try and piece together clues that take us to a conclusion different then what the eye witness gave us is very problematic. At the core of the problems is a distrust of the eye-witnesses. To push any theory that contradicts them is a bold statement that says, "I don't trust your Joseph Smith." or Apostle Orson Pratt.

Part of the reason the LDS Doctrine is so slippery is that again and again it gets revised. There have many revisions of the truth.

Peace

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"For nothing is secret, that shall not be made manifest; neither any thing hid, that shall not be known and come abroad." - Luke 8:17


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leftasteen
Post  Post subject: Re: Any one watch Jeremy Runnell's "leaked" video of his so  |  Posted: Mon May 09, 2016 4:08 pm
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With all due respect, I am always baffled by the detailed study of all this Mormon history in order to prove falsehood.

Based on the founding principles of modern prophecy, direct revelation, and the Preisthood power, the Church is either ALL TRUE, or ALL FALSE. There is no middle ground.

The simple flip-flops on Polygamy and the Black Curse are more than enough evidence of the falsehood. Does anyone really believe an Omnipotent God changed his mind back and forth about his eternal plan over just a few years on these doctrines?? Really?

From magic underwear, to gold plates that don't exist, to baptism for the dead, to secret handshakes, Mormon theology could just as easily be presented as a Harry Potter sequel. Get real.

Stop studying. Archeologists have better things to do with their time.


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productofchoice
Post  Post subject: Re: Any one watch Jeremy Runnell's "leaked" video of his so  |  Posted: Tue May 10, 2016 6:45 am
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People have their own unique wedge issues.

For the LDS, having an archeological find would be a huge support. If the cities could be established then it would give credibility to the rest of the BoM and Joseph Smith and maybe to the LDS or the RLDS or some other fragmented group... but definitely to the BoM.

And the hope is that such a find would cause a great influx of membership ... a building up of the kingdom.

When you look at the books, there's a bunch of info. There is all this talk about the civilization, of their coins and metal work and cities and animals and crops and wars and weapons and heritage all that good stuff. These things should have left a mark. These things should have left mountains of relics.

And while not finding them doesn't prove they don't exist, it sure starts to point in that direction.

There are some pretty awesome new technologies these days where drones or satellites can see disturbances caused in the earth.

And we know where one of the hills is claimed to be. Why not start there?

Peace

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"For nothing is secret, that shall not be made manifest; neither any thing hid, that shall not be known and come abroad." - Luke 8:17


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Abinadi
Post  Post subject: Re: Any one watch Jeremy Runnell's "leaked" video of his so  |  Posted: Thu May 12, 2016 11:55 pm
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If I were a 20 year old Mormon, I would know for a fact that the doctrines and teachings of the Church have never changed. The Gospel is eternal, and that means it doesn't change to fit the traditions of men.

If I were a 30 year old Mormon, I would be a little uncomfortable with a contradiction or two, or an illogical explanation in the doctrines and teachings of the Church, but I would know that there is a reasonable explanation, and when I get to the spirit world, if I am faithful, it will all be explained to my satisfaction.

If I were a 40 year old Mormon, I would not speak about the inconsistencies that I have seen over the years, because I would not want to be labeled a "doubter" and I would not want my interview with the Bishop to be embarrassing for me. I don't want to look stupid either.

If I were a 50 year old Mormon, I would wonder about the changes in policies I have seen over the years. I would be excited about the new explanations about doctrines, new presentations of teachings, and the energizing new programs. I would set aside my concerns about the changes I have seen in doctrines. I would strive to find the Conference speeches exciting or at least inspiring.

If I were a 60 year old Mormon, I would rev up my personal computer, find a reliable search engine, and if I couldn't find one, I would use Google. I would look up some of the topics I was concerned about, in order to get more details, and better explanations, so I could defend the Church from its enemies, and explain difficult doctrines to my friends who were not yet ready for the meat of the Gospel. I would also use the internet to try to figure out some historical questions that have arisen because of contradictory accounts of important historical events in the Church. I would especially look for the restoration of the Aaronic Priesthood, information on the Second Anointing that is not so sacred that it can't be talked about outside the Temple, whether it is only Jesus who will have wives, children and families, or will there be LDS blessed this way also, and I would look for definitive statements by Brigham Young and Joseph Fielding Smith and a few others, explaining what they really meant by their remarkable remarks in the Journal of Discourses.

If I were a 70 year old Mormon, I would wonder why I am following this Church rather than one of the other church denominations which accept Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon, but reject polytheism, polygamy, blood atonement, or one or another of the exceptionally embarrassing past teachings of the Church. I would wonder if perhaps I should look into another Christian church to see if their members are as bad or as insincere or as ignorant of Scripture as I have been taught in my Sunday School and Priesthood Classes.

If I were an 80 year old Mormon, I'd tell my Bishop and Stake President to their faces what I have found out. I would ask them why, when I asked them about these issues, they pretended not to know when they had to have known, or why they said my discoveries were not true, when they knew they were true. I would ask them for an accounting, I would demand a look at the Church budget. I would tell them that I don't care what some accountant claims to have seen - I want to see for myself how the Church administrators - "Trustees in Trust" and all that - are disbursing the funds that are sent to them for missionary work, welfare assistance, education, salaries, overhead, and whatever else it is being used for.

If I were a 90 year old Mormon I would tell my family we have been living in error so dark it almost qualifies as sin. I would ask their forgiveness and promise to help them resolve the problems that we now all see with the contradictions, illogic, and sense of superiority of the leaders and members of the Church. I would promise them that I will not let any of them fall into despair, wander aimless, get lost in uncertainty. I will figure these things out, and explain to them the truth about the Church.

If I were a 100 year old Mormon, I would kick myself in the behind. How could someone of my intelligence, of my sincerity, of my sense of morality, have been so gullible. How could I not have seen through the fantastic tales of early Mormons, the manipulations of modern Mormons, the indiscretions of both past and present Mormons, the lovelessness of the Church's "courts of love," the lack of accountability - me for not asking about it, them for not revealing it - with tithing and other receipts, the shaming, denigrating, mocking, derision, sarcasm, and condemnation of the Church leaders and teachers directed not just against the beliefs of those who believe differently from them, but directed against them as persons - Martin Harris, John Whitmer, Sarah Pratt, Ann Eliza Young, Joseph Smith III, Jerald and Sandra Tanner, Sonia Johnson, Steve Benson, John Dehlin, D. Michael Quinn, Jeremy Runnell, and more. Why can't the Church leave exmembers alone. The Mormon Church can let an exmember go but it can't let an exmember alone.

Or I might be like many others, and figure this all out in my 20s or 30s, and still have most of my life ahead of me, unencumbered by the foibles, failures, and fairy tales of Mormonism. Yeah, that's right, I think that's what I'll do. Save a lot of time, save a lot of grief. All it takes is a little bit of searching and reading - and talking to some who have already done this, to get their perspective.


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productofchoice
Post  Post subject: Re: Any one watch Jeremy Runnell's "leaked" video of his so  |  Posted: Fri May 13, 2016 9:38 am
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Abinadi,

I think there comes a point where so much is invested in and so much is "at stake" that there is a no turning back decision. Might as well ride it out. If I'm right then I'm set. If I'm wrong, leaving won't get it all back for me. Might as well ride it out.

Deciding there is no God at 100 gets you what? rejected by your remaining friends and family?

Deciding Mormonism is wrong at 100 gets you what? rejected by your remaining friends and family?

And for some, to leave requires seeing a better outcome somewhere else. If Mormonism is a subset of Christianity, then (in their minds) what's to be gained by becoming a less specialized form of Christian? If the extra rules are unnecessary, what's the harm in keeping those extra rules? It takes a vision of a better ... and significantly better path to take the risk of giving up the current path.

Peace

_________________
I resigned from the Church of THE Jesus Christ of the Latter Day Saints (Feb 2011)

"For nothing is secret, that shall not be made manifest; neither any thing hid, that shall not be known and come abroad." - Luke 8:17


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Abinadi
Post  Post subject: Re: Any one watch Jeremy Runnell's "leaked" video of his so  |  Posted: Fri May 13, 2016 10:25 pm
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Right-o, Productofchoice. I envy those who realized this earlier in their lives than I did, and who did it through their own thinking rather than through a traumatic Disassociation. I hope everyone looks deeply into Mormonism when they first start thinking about joining, or when they become "the age of accountability", so they a clear picture of what it is that is urging them to become Mormon.

Then there are those of us with the experience to know that the differences are not just a few extra things to do, but an entirely alien (Kolob, etc.) way to look at life, the universe, and Deity.

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teoma2
Post  Post subject: Re: Any one watch Jeremy Runnell's "leaked" video of his so  |  Posted: Mon May 16, 2016 5:14 pm
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SuzyQ over on PostMo indicates that Jeremy will be one of several guest speakers at this years ExMo Convention in SLC, this Oct.

Its been a good while since we last attended Abinadi. Can you get away again this year?

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