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Post  Post subject: Re: My testimony  |  Posted: Tue Apr 19, 2016 6:45 pm
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God of Elves, Seer Stones and a Hat

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productofchoice wrote:
You aren't wrong Rich.

The thing is that Mormons seek to proselyte people to their cause.
So why be so bothered when people are pulled away from their cause?
Is it only fair to take and not give?

Peace

Productofchoice,

In my zeal as a Jehovah's Witness back in the 1970s, I prepared for and then went to have a debate with a man on whether the JW faith was true or not.

That evening, I saw the light. My religion was laid bare and proven to be false.

I had a choice: Either go with the truth or promote the lie at all costs; I chose to embrace the truth.

It has not been an easy path. But, the rewards are well worth it.

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http://www.richkelsey.org/lds_index.html
Rich Kelsey


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richkelsey.org
Post  Post subject: Re: My testimony  |  Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2016 2:13 pm
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God of Elves, Seer Stones and a Hat

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One more thing:

Jesus said: "The Truth Will Make You Free."

"So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, 'If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.'" (John 8: 31-32)

Since this thread is about the Book of Mormon, let's see if the Book of Mormon lines up with the Truth:

Book of Mormon Story:

Joseph Smith, the founder of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, claimed that in 1823 he experienced a heavenly visitation in which he was directed to a hill in Western New York to uncover a stone box containing,

“a sacred record which was written on plates of gold.”[5]

Four years later, according to the story, an angel allowed Joseph Smith to take possession of the plates, along with some special glasses[6] to translate the mysterious ancient language[7] into English. Smith claimed that what he unearthed from the hill Cumorah was a record written by the former inhabitants of America entitled[8] the Book of Mormon.

In the Book of Mormon, a story is told of a Hebrew family that flees the city of Jerusalem about 600 B.C. Their father's name is Lehi, an alleged descendant of the Bible’s Joseph. Lehi's son Nephi was his most righteous son. Nephi became the leader over his rebellious brothers. God instructed Lehi and his family to sail across the ocean to the American continent about 589 B.C. After arriving, Nephi and his oldest brother Laman had a conflict and separated. This conflict created two nations; the Nephites and the Lamanites.

The Nephites had God's favor, they are described as being:

“white and exceedingly fair and delightsome” (2 Nephi 5:21).

The Lamanites supposedly were cursed to have black skin and were primitive compared to the Nephites. These two nations fought against each other, on and off, for centuries. Eventually, the prophet Mormon became the leader of the Nephites.

Mormon desired that the entire Nephite nation should gather near the hill Cumorah in Western New York to battle the Lamanites:

"… I, Mormon, wrote an epistle unto the king of the Lamanites, and desired of him that he would grant unto us that we might gather together our people unto the land of Cumorah, by a hill which was called Cumorah, and there we could give them battle. And it came to pass that the king of the Lamanites did grant unto me the thing which I desired." (Mormon, 6:2-3)

In this battle, the Nephite nation was destroyed.[9] Yet, Mormon’s son Moroni lived. Moroni then engraved an account of the battle on gold plates and buried those plates, along with other plates,[10] which his father had previously buried in the hill.

Several things seem wrong with this story:

● Mormon desired to have every single one of his subjects (men, women, and children) fight, in what becomes a final battle. His request brought about the annihilation of the entire Nephite nation. If this story were true, Mormon's call to battle would be one of the biggest military blunders of all time. Let's try to imagine the Bible's King Solomon requesting a battle which ends up wiping out the nation of Israel; if Solomon had done so, how many people would consider him a wise man?

● Also, it’s hard to imagine how the Nephites, who had migrated throughout America, could be summoned to battle. For example: How would all the Nephites get the message?

● Logistically, it would seem impossible for every Nephite family in America to battle the Lamanites, on, and around, that small hill in New York. If these peoples were as numerous as the Book of Mormon claims they were, they could not have fit in that small section of New York.

● There is the story itself: of the Nephite nation being destroyed in a final battle. It provides readers with an answer as to why the primitive dark-skinned Lamanites (American Indians) were found in America when Columbus set foot on the Continent. Yet, this Book of Mormon story raises more questions than it answers:

Envision an American family living about 1,625 years ago in what is now called the State of California. In order to survive, they have a large farm including fields of wheat and corn and much livestock. The wife had just given birth to a baby girl a few days earlier when a representative of the prophet Mormon approaches her and her husband explaining that they, along with their extended family, are needed by Mormon to fight in a battle he was arranging to take place a few years from now and some 2,950 miles away.

Envision the husband asking Mormon's representative if his wife and their newborn baby girl could stay behind; and, if her elderly parents could also stay and maintain the farm while he and all the able bodied men go to battle, only to hear the man reply:

"No, Mormon needs 'all the remainder of our people.'"[11]

The husband responds:

"But the baby will only be two or three years old by the time the battle starts; and, I'm afraid that my wife and her parents may be too frail to survive the journey."

Even if the husband were sympathetic to the idea of forsaking the crops, abandoning the livestock, and having every member of the family young and old set out on a trek across the nation; one might wonder how Mormon's representative could explain to them how to get to Cumorah? Obviously, back in the day, people could not drive down the Interstate and follow the signs. And, the mountain passes and desert terrains were formidable. Also, let's consider the hardship the family would face traveling during the winter months. And, since every single Nephite[12] in America was supposedly involved in the battle, we could paint a similar picture of families all across America forsaking everything upon hearing Mormon's request; but, is this a realistic picture?

There are more problems with the story: According to the Book of Mormon, this was not the first time all the people in North America were gathered to Cumorah for battle. About 515 years earlier there was another battle on that same hill:

“And it came to pass that the army of Coriantumr did pitch their tents by the hill Ramah; and it was that same hill where my father Mormon did hide up the records unto the Lord, which were sacred.” (Ether 15:11)

On this subject LDS Apostle Bruce R. McConkie said,

"both the Nephite and Jaredite civilizations fought their final great wars of extinction at and near the Hill Cumorah (or Ramah as the Jaredites termed it), which hill is located between Palmyra and Manchester in the western part of the state of New York. It was here that Moroni hid up the gold plates from which the Book of Mormon was translated." (Mormon Doctrine, 1966, p. 175)

In the earlier battle, the Jaredite nation consisting of the people of Coriantumr and the people of Shiz, was utterly destroyed:

"Millions of the Jaredites are slain in battle—Shiz and Coriantumr assemble all the people to mortal combat—The Spirit of the Lord ceases to strive with them—The Jaredite nation is utterly destroyed—Only Coriantumr remains" (Introduction to Ether 15).

Once again, gathering millions[13] of Americans from every corner of the North American continent would have been nearly impossible. Obviously 2,600 years ago people couldn’t turn on the nightly news and learn about the call to go to war. There were no televisions; phones, or any other type of device that could have provided long distance communication.

Because horses weren't present[14] in America until Cortes brought them over in 1519 A.D., messengers would have needed to traverse the American continent on foot in order to

“get all who were upon the face of the land.”[15]

Then, everyone would have needed to walk to get to the battleground. Again, why would every family in America decide to go on such a laborious journey? The supposed influence which Coriantumr and Shiz had upon people seems far-fetched. Why would families living thousands of miles away from these two monarchs have such strong political ties with them?

Furthermore, there’s the food and supplies people would have needed for the trip. Can you imagine every family in North America walking to New York, carrying with them extra clothes, cooking implements, food, and possibly weapons, for the great battle they were summoned to:

“And it came to pass that when they were all gathered together, every one to the army which he would, with their wives and their children—both men, women and children being armed with weapons of war, having shields, and breastplates, and head-plates, and being clothed after the manner of war—they did march forth one against another to battle; and they fought all that day, and conquered not.” (Ether 15:15)

Wives and children were also involved in this battle. This would answer why the entire Jaredite nation was destroyed. Yet, it doesn’t make much sense: Can you imagine children wearing body armor and being armed with weapons of war? Or, blind men and women involved in battle? And, what about people with a missing arm or leg? Or, those who are old and frail; one might wonder if the story of Shiz and Coriantumr assembling:

"all the people to mortal combat"

has any basis in reality?

Another question: Where did all this body armor come from?

More Things To Consider:

During the four years it supposedly took to gather everyone to combat, what if Coriantumr and Shiz had accidently started the battle a week or two too soon; leaving thousands of families still on the way. As far as the story goes, the timing of the battle was crucial. A four year build up to war would create some obvious problems: Why would families that showed up a few years, or even months early, wait around? Didn’t they have anything better to do? Also, what about the food and provisions needed to support all the people during the time this gathering was taking place?

Then, there is the battle itself, which would have been a bloodbath, seeing that millions were supposedly slaughtered on and around a hill. Walking to that scene would have meant that families waded through blood and stepped over countless dead bodies. It seems hard to believe, that no one, seeing that huge bloody mess didn’t make a decision to turn around and go home. Instead, every one of them decided to fight for the cause.

If the gathering over a span of four years of every family in America, and also the slaughter of every person gathered was not too hard to believe, what also seems strange is that out of the millions of people dying on the battlefield, the two monarchs who summoned the people to battle in the first place ended up being the only two left standing.

Then there is the account of how the monarch Shiz died:

“And it came to pass that after he [Coriantumr] had smitten off the head of Shiz, that Shiz raised up on his hands and fell; and after that he struggled for breath, he died.” (Ether 15:31)

Brigham Henry Roberts, who was an LDS General Authority and Assistant Church Historian, examined the literary style within the Book of Mormon and concluded:

“The narrative proceeds in characteristic disregard of conditions necessary to its reasonableness, as if it were a tale told by a child, with utter disregard for consistency."[16]

From my article "The Book of Mormon"

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http://www.richkelsey.org/lds_index.html
Rich Kelsey


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Melanie
Post  Post subject: Re: My testimony  |  Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2016 3:32 pm
myself

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kevincarey19067 wrote:
I don't understand why all of you are so upset about what others believe. They aren't hurting you by believing in The Book of Mormon.


Hi! Further to what I wrote earlier on this thread...actually they are because it is sad to see well intentioned and intelligent folk hoodwinked in the name of Christ and believing LDS doctrines, when the doctrines are not at all what Christ would want. You might like to check out the Freemasonry roots too. This all hurts me.

It is a lot to take in. It's great you are engaging with this all. I was reminded once that God totally accepts and cares for and has provision for those who can't grasp the concept ref Thomas. Keep at it, let Him work in you. It is Christ who has done what He has done and is doing for you, at this time He is using the LDS organisation, He did for me too and that is great, we all learn a lot and get skills and make memories. But that is not the end of the story if you want more and to know so such more. It is exciting isn't it. :) I am excited for you.

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kevincarey19067
Post  Post subject: Re: My testimony  |  Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2016 12:21 pm
Nursery

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https://www.ldsliving.com/How-a-Piece-o ... on/s/81914

Someone picked up my story.


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productofchoice
Post  Post subject: Re: My testimony  |  Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2016 12:36 pm
God

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So Kevin,

That's an interesting story... as said before. And it's inspirational too. But if I said I don't think it's true, how would you establish it's truth to me? How would you show that it's fact vs fiction?

I'm not asking for the information, I'm just asking about the process.

This becomes very interesting when you think about LDS Apostle Paul H Dunn and his past.

Peace

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I resigned from the Church of THE Jesus Christ of the Latter Day Saints (Feb 2011)

"For nothing is secret, that shall not be made manifest; neither any thing hid, that shall not be known and come abroad." - Luke 8:17


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richkelsey.org
Post  Post subject: Re: My testimony  |  Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2016 8:00 pm
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God of Elves, Seer Stones and a Hat

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productofchoice wrote:
So Kevin,

That's an interesting story... as said before. And it's inspirational too. But if I said I don't think it's true, how would you establish it's truth to me? How would you show that it's fact vs fiction?

I'm not asking for the information, I'm just asking about the process.

This becomes very interesting when you think about LDS Apostle Paul H Dunn and his past.

Peace

productofchoice,

I can understand why you said "... how would you establish it's truth ..."

After all in the Opening Post it is written:

"The Testimony of a man named Kevin Carey"

To me, I am left wondering if that man may not be the same person claiming to be him in this thread. Because, a person speaking of "a man" may very well be speaking of someone other than himself. One thing is certain: We were promised dialog.

That was not [yet] true: No answers. Only questions and confusing statements.

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My LDS Series:
http://www.richkelsey.org/lds_index.html
Rich Kelsey


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richkelsey.org
Post  Post subject: Re: My testimony  |  Posted: Sat Apr 30, 2016 9:00 pm
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God of Elves, Seer Stones and a Hat

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For those of us who may desire to take a deeper look into Mormon origins I submit this small section from my article: Printer's Manuscript of the Book of Mormon (press conference)

Stories of buried treasure:

The golden plates stories which Joseph was telling to his family during the 1820s contained many of the same details as stories Joseph was telling about buried treasure during the same time-frame.

Example: Joseph Smith’s Mother said,

“In the moment of excitement, Joseph was overcome by the powers of darkness, and forgot the injunction that was laid upon him. Having some further conversation with the angel on this occasion, Joseph was permitted to raise the stone again, when he beheld the plates as he had done before. He immediately reached forth his hand to take them, but instead of getting them, as he anticipated, he was hurled back upon the ground with great violence. When he recovered, the angel was gone, and he arose and returned to the house weeping for grief and disappointment.” (Lucy Smith, Biographical Sketches, p. 347)

It's interesting that Lucy Smith used the word

"weeping"

while describing how her son was acting after not obtaining the golden plates the first time he tried to get them.

One might wonder, was Joseph's weeping just an act, or was his story credible? If it was credible, then that would mean "Moroni" really did hurl Joseph back on the ground,

"... with great violence,"

which is one detail most LDS Church members are unaware of!

One thing is certain: Joseph Smith's neighbor Willard Chase substantiated Lucy's account,

"... he [Joseph Smith] again stooped down and strove to take the book, when the spirit struck him again, and knocked him three or four rods, and hurt him prodigiously. After recovering from his fright, he enquired why he could not obtain the plates; to which the spirit made reply, because you have not obeyed your orders. He then enquired when he could have them, and was answered thus: come one year from this day, and bring with you your oldest brother, and you shall have them." (MORMONISM, p.242) < (see documentation)

Joseph Smith's neighbor Fayette Lapham gave a similar account, adding more details:

"Taking up the first article, he saw others below; laying down the first, he endeavored to secure the others; but, before he could get hold of them, the one he had taken up slid back to the place he had taken it from, and, to his great surprize and terror, the rock immediately fell back to its former place, nearly crushing him in its descent. His first thought was that he had not properly secured the rock when it was turned up, and accordingly he again tried to lift it, but now in vain; he next tried with the aid of levers, but still without success. While thus engaged, he felt something strike him on the breast, which was repeated the third time, always with increased force, the last such as to lay him upon his back. As he lay there, he looked up and saw the same large man that had appeared in his dream, dressed in the same clothes. He said to him that, when the treasure was deposited there, he was sworn to take charge of and protect that property, until the time should arrive for it to be exhibited to the world of mankind; and, in order to prevent his making an improper disclosure, he was murdered or slain on the spot, and the treasure had been under his charge ever since.

He said to him that he had not followed his directions; and, in consequence of laying the article down before putting it in the napkin, he could not have the article now; but that if he would come again, one year from that time, he could then have them." (HISTORICAL MAGAZINE, 1870, p. 308)

The words:

"... dressed in the same clothes,"

are noteworthy. Because, the clothes described earlier in that account were bloody :

"... he [Joseph Smith] had a very singular dream; but he did not tell his father of his dream, until about a year afterwards. He then told his father that, in his dream, a very large and tall man appeared to him, dressed in an ancient suit of clothes, and the clothes were bloody. And the man said to him that there was a valuable treasure, buried many years since, and not far from that place..." (HISTORICAL MAGAZINE, 1870, p. 307)

That hardly resembles later accounts of a bedroom vision in which a messenger from the skies appeared in white clothing:

"The stature of this personage was a little above the common size of men in this age; his garment was perfectly white, and had the appearance of being without seam." (Messenger and Advocate, 1835, p. 78)

One might wonder if it's likely that later golden plates stories evolved out of earlier stories of a dream and a bleeding ghost?

On this subject, the sons of Rev. Nathaniel Lewis explained:

[In the early stories] "... there was not one word about 'visions of God,' or of angels, or heavenly revelations. All his [Joseph Smith's] information was by that dream, and that bleeding ghost. The heavenly visions and messages of angels, etc, contained in Mormon books, were after-thoughts, revised to order." (The Amboy Journal, June 11, 1879, p.1)

There was a time when the LDS Church could get away with concealing this embarrassing history.

Oh how things have changed!

Since the topic of this thread is about testimony, perhaps someone will join in and tells us if the section above helped strengthen their testimony; or, not. And/or, if they believe the section misrepresented true Mormon history from back in the day. In other words: I'm waiting for the dialog that was promised.

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richkelsey.org
Post  Post subject: Re: My testimony  |  Posted: Wed May 04, 2016 3:40 pm
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God of Elves, Seer Stones and a Hat

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For those of us who care, here is a bit more of my testimony about the LDS faith:

Lost Prophecies About Joseph Smith Found?

Envision Moses from Old Testament fame, writing an introduction to Genesis, (Moses One) only to have dishonest scribes remove that work from the biblical canon. Envision corrupt scribes also going through the remaining chapters of Genesis and removing thousands of other words which Moses had written. Then, envision God raising up a seer in the latter-days; who, under divine inspiration, restored Moses’ lost words to their ancient purity:

“And that seer will I bless, and they that seek to destroy him shall be confounded; for this promise I give unto you; for I will remember you from generation to generation; and his name shall be called Joseph, and it shall be after the name of his father; and he shall be like unto you; [Moses] for the thing which the Lord shall bring forth by his hand shall bring my people unto salvation.” (Genesis 50:33)

Out of all the bibles in the world, only the Joseph Smith Translation contains this prophecy; conventional versions end at Genesis 50:26. The JST contains an extra twelve verses ending at Genesis 50:38. The “seer” mentioned in the text is referring to Joseph Smith. His father’s name was also Joseph; and, there are other details in this prophecy that fit with another supposed lost prophecy about Smith:

“And in a day when the children of men shall esteem my words as naught and take many of them from the book which thou shalt write, behold, I will raise up another like unto thee; and they shall be had again among the children of men—among as many as shall believe.” (Moses 1:41)

God is supposedly speaking to Moses about a book Moses shall write, and how men will take many words away from it; yet God will raise up another like unto Moses and the missing words shall be

“had again.”

When Joseph Smith uttered Moses’ lost words to his scribe, and then realized he was the very person spoken of in the prophecy, this was possibly one of the greatest events in the history of religion! Or, perhaps it was a bald faced lie of grandiose proportions?

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http://www.richkelsey.org/lds_index.html
Rich Kelsey


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productofchoice
Post  Post subject: Re: My testimony  |  Posted: Wed May 04, 2016 8:18 pm
God

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Someone should have warned Joseph Smith's readers that many of the things that God tells him would be taken away again. Things that were written in the Book of Commandments, the Lectures on Faith, the Journal of Discourses and even the Doctrine and Covenants and the Book of Mormon. These were all at least as relevant in their day as the Ensign, even the Conference talks are today and yet where are they now? Only the Book of Mormon is central and most members are unaware of the changes to that book over the years. The old has changed like the words of the Liahona. It's not an "Iron Rod" that you can cling to in times of trouble, it's a whisp, a phantom ... It has the illusion of stability but it's keeps changing.

Peace

_________________
I resigned from the Church of THE Jesus Christ of the Latter Day Saints (Feb 2011)

"For nothing is secret, that shall not be made manifest; neither any thing hid, that shall not be known and come abroad." - Luke 8:17


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