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richkelsey.org
Post  Post subject: Joseph Smith, Oliver Cowdery and myself, received this...  |  Posted: Fri May 22, 2015 11:38 pm
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Hello Board!

Some of us may remember that the Elders I met at the Seattle Temple last summer gave me grief because I claimed Joseph Smith received a revelation through a seer stone. Well, I think I just found more evidence to substantiate this?

Yet, it may not pass the burning bosom test? (sigh)

"In June, 1829, Joseph Smith, Oliver Cowdery and myself, received this commandment through the stone, "Behold, I give unto you a commandment, that you rely upon the things which are written (then, at that time, June, 1829), for in them are all things written concerning my church, my gospel, and my rock." This revelation reads this way to-day in the old Book of Commandments. But the Latter Day saints changed it in 1834 to read different in the Book of Doctrine and Covenants. The revelations received through the stone in 1829, agree with the teachings of Christ in the Bible and Book of Mormon; but in order to support the errors which were afterwards introduced by men, some of the early revelations have been changed and added to, as I will show you in another chapter." http://richkelsey.org/an_address_to_all ... .html#p.49

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Rainfeather
Post  Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith, Oliver Cowdery and myself, received this..  |  Posted: Sat May 23, 2015 7:45 am
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Wow, I didn't even know that one. No matter what religion people belong to, they always manage to pick and choose what they will ignore and quickly forget, and what they will pounce upon as strong evidence for their faith.

I have nothing against spirituality, but I'm liking organized religion less and less these days. Although the farther away from Mormonism I get, the more I'm able to just let people believe what they want and own my personal opinion as just that - my own opinion.

Anyway, we certainly never studied anything like that in Sunday School class. LOL

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Melanie
Post  Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith, Oliver Cowdery and myself, received this..  |  Posted: Sat May 23, 2015 9:56 am
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Yes, I learned a lot too. I was not aware of the Latter Day Saint movement and what it means when there is no hyphen inbetween Latter and Day.

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How to heal? http://media.blubrry.com/mormonexpressi ... ion225.mp3


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richkelsey.org
Post  Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith, Oliver Cowdery and myself, received this..  |  Posted: Sat May 23, 2015 2:52 pm
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God of Elves, Seer Stones and a Hat

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Hi Board.

I just finished reading An Address To All Believers In Christ — David Whitmer.

In that work, Whitmer claims he was there (present) when Joseph received revelations from the stone over and over again; here is an example:

"The next important change I will speak of, is made in a revelation which was given to Brothers Joseph Smith, Oliver Cowdery, and myself in Fayette, New York, June, 1829. I was present when Brother Joseph received it through the stone."

The reason I'm mentioning this is because an LDS Elder tried to convince me that neither Whitmer, Harris, or Oliver was present when a revelation we were looking into was given.

My idea on this: What good is it to have a magic act, stone in a hat, if there is no one present to witness the act / revelation being given?

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http://www.richkelsey.org/lds_index.html
Rich Kelsey


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ngabriel03
Post  Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith, Oliver Cowdery and myself, received this..  |  Posted: Tue May 26, 2015 3:05 pm
Nursery

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Supporting error. Yep. Can't do without that.


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richkelsey.org
Post  Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith, Oliver Cowdery and myself, received this..  |  Posted: Tue May 26, 2015 3:59 pm
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God of Elves, Seer Stones and a Hat

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ngabriel03 wrote:
Supporting error. Yep. Can't do without that.

Hi ngabriel03

I'm working on another article to better document Smith's seer stone use: http://www.richkelsey.org/joseph_looked ... e_hat.html

I think it will take about a year to finish it right; but, I have a work in process up right now.

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http://www.richkelsey.org/lds_index.html
Rich Kelsey


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leftasteen
Post  Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith, Oliver Cowdery and myself, received this..  |  Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2015 10:30 pm
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I don't understand why any such detailed research of church details is even neccessary.

Isn't the waffling back and forth on such doctrines as Polygamy and Black Curse proof enough that this is not eternal truth revealed by God himself? Doesn't that alone totally undermine the very basic foundational reason the church ever came into existence?

I don't need to debate finer points of Sharia Law to know that ISIS is evil. Mormonism is equally false on it's face.

Isn't the ridiculousness of Mormon foundation obvious enough to make all this research a trivial waste of time? Doesn't finding faults imply there is truth between the faults? JS was a charismatic cult leader who made it up. Simple. Obvious. Total.


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teoma2
Post  Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith, Oliver Cowdery and myself, received this..  |  Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2015 9:09 am
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Leftasteen, its a really big coffin, that the Great Pretender left behind himself, so it takes a lot of nails in the right places to shut or close it off...for good.

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richkelsey.org
Post  Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith, Oliver Cowdery and myself, received this..  |  Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2015 9:30 am
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God of Elves, Seer Stones and a Hat

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leftasteen wrote:
I don't understand why any such detailed research of church details is even neccessary.

Isn't the waffling back and forth on such doctrines as Polygamy and Black Curse proof enough that this is not eternal truth revealed by God himself? Doesn't that alone totally undermine the very basic foundational reason the church ever came into existence?

I don't need to debate finer points of Sharia Law to know that ISIS is evil. Mormonism is equally false on it's face.

Isn't the ridiculousness of Mormon foundation obvious enough to make all this research a trivial waste of time? Doesn't finding faults imply there is truth between the faults? JS was a charismatic cult leader who made it up. Simple. Obvious. Total.

Hello leftasteen!

We all have different perspectives. In my case, when I was 21 years old, living in Long beach California in 1976, I picked up a Book or Mormon which was on a shelf in a boarding-room hall. I had been studying the bible for a few years by that time; and, within 10 minutes of reading the Book of Mormon, I could see right through it as a fabricated story. I also balked at the suggestion which I read in the book encouraging me to pray about whether or not it was true because I was experiencing a strong witness in the spirit right then and there that it was false.

Three years later. I'm back in the state of Washington working at Boeing. I had given my life to Christ in 1977; and, I am attending classes at a Christian bible college. While at Boeing, an LDS man witnessed to me almost every day; he was bent on converting me to the LDS faith. I had never heard of Joseph Smith's "Polygamy and [or, the] Black Curse" doctrine back then. So that was not the subject of our discussions.

I went to the local Christian book-store and bought material on the LDS faith to better educate myself on Mormonism. I soon found out that none of the arguments I brought up to this man, Bob, had any effect on him.

Then, in 1985, I was living in a room of a house in Renton Washington; and, one of the room-mates had Mormon friends; again, none of the arguments I brought up had any effect on the Mormons. Then, while living in Bellevue Washington close to the Seattle temple, the missionaries would come by the house two or three times a year.
I wanted to find some solid answers on Mormonism to discuss with them. When I got access to the Internet in the 1990s, I was finally able to dig deep into the LDS faith.

I knew from past experience that trying to use the bible with Mormons will not work; because anytime I did they would just say those verses had been corrupted. So, I went looking for early LDS source material from LDS.org. I read all the standard works including histories written by early members. This was the what I used to write my articles. I felt I had to use material available at LDS.org, so the missionaries could not easily dismiss it.

What I did not realize could happen: The Missionaries ended up dismissing quote after quote from LDS.org; because the material in question contained references to Joseph Smith's seer stone use. So, for the last few years, I expanded my quest to document Smith's seer stone use which culminated in the following articles:

 Ask a Mormon: Cognitive Dissonance and the LDS Faith http://richkelsey.org/cognitive_dissonance.html
 PREACH MY GOSPEL — A Guide for Missionary Service http://richkelsey.org/Preach_My_Gospel.html

Those articles document meetings with the Missionaries/Elders.

Would I change a single thing I presented in my LDS works or presentations I have given? "No."

You may see my life's work as a "trivial waste of time."

Again, we all have different perspectives.

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My LDS Series:
http://www.richkelsey.org/lds_index.html
Rich Kelsey


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Melanie
Post  Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith, Oliver Cowdery and myself, received this..  |  Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2015 10:20 am
myself

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Rich, Some people are just so confoundedly rude in how they present themselves. I just don't know where peoples manners have gone to.

For my part, I am not just solely grateful for and rely upon your work, but I am grateful for all of who you are to me, to the Board and to all those who care about apologetics.

A lot of people have come from difficult backgrounds and have hard journeys and I never want to underestimate that or to seem to say that that is the end point they will always be at, for restoration from this is a great truth.

But the Board can be a starting place to learn healthier ways of communication, normal communication that is not tainted by LDS disrespect and for my part, I would encourage posters to be aware that this is a healing place.

And , yes, I have made my errors too but those errors can guide now.

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richkelsey.org
Post  Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith, Oliver Cowdery and myself, received this..  |  Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2015 11:02 am
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Melanie wrote:
Rich, Some people are just so confoundedly rude in how they present themselves. I just don't know where peoples manners have gone to.

For my part, I am not just solely grateful for and rely upon your work, but I am grateful for all of who you are to me, to the Board and to all those who care about apologetics.

A lot of people have come from difficult backgrounds and have hard journeys and I never want to underestimate that or to seem to say that that is the end point they will always be at, for restoration from this is a great truth.

But the Board can be a starting place to learn healthier ways of communication, normal communication that is not tainted by LDS disrespect and for my part, I would encourage posters to be aware that this is a healing place.

And , yes, I have made my errors too but those errors can guide now.

Hi Melanie.

You too are appreciated!

God bless you.

Rich


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richkelsey.org
Post  Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith, Oliver Cowdery and myself, received this..  |  Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2015 3:50 pm
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To leftasteen and anyone else who cares:

Using the black curse doctrine, and/or, changes to the doctrine; and, the history of LDS Polygamy, and/or, changes to that teaching as the only subject matter to be discussed would not have worked with the LDS Elders who came over to my house just over a year ago.

Here is why: The LDS spokesman who came with them is a Native American, the very first thing he said to me was how since he became LDS "his skin has gotten whiter and it keeps getting whiter." Therefore, he testified to the truth of the black curse doctrine.

Also, pointing out verses in the BOM which were changed from white to pure would have probably backfired; I can envision several arguments the man could have brought up to cloud the issue on BOM changes in this regard. One being that the doctrine is still found in the BOM; not all the verses were changed; and, who cares about what or how the doctrine was interpreted by various Church members over the years. The point being: Out of all the LDS doctrines to bring up to this LDS spokesman, I am convinced this one would have been the least effective.

Then, there is the doctrine of LDS Polygamy, and/or, changes to that teaching. The LDS spokesman and Elders were visiting me in the months before November 10th, 2014 which was the day the LDS Church admitted to Joseph Smith's plural wives; and, also before Mitt Romney reminisced about Mormons still believing that Emma was Joseph's only wife (BYU Address 11/18/2014) before that November 10th, 2014 admission. see: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qPkItCUnpT8

The point being: The Church was still keeping members in the dark on the subject during the summer of 2014 when I was having meetings with the Mormons. Surely I would have been laughed at if I brought the subject up. Keep in mind that these people would not go on the Internet; not even to LDS.org!

Now: leftasteen, evidently to you, (today) those two subjects alone are / were enough to disprove Mormonism.

Well, we all have our own perspectives.

I have documented my visits with the Elders and their reactions to my presentations:

Ask a Mormon ... http://richkelsey.org/cognitive_dissonance.html

Perhaps you would care to share with us how your approach works with Missionaries in the field?

Rich


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richkelsey.org
Post  Post subject: My Story: Another Answer for leftasteen  |  Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2015 10:37 am
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Some may wonder why I have spent so much of my time and effort over the years documenting problems with the LDS faith. It had to do my search for truth in the 1970s, which got sidetracked into taking bible study classes with the Jehovah's Witnesses on and off for two years; and, then losing a debate to a Christian man the evening I was invited to present my case for the JW religion.

Yes. Not only did I lose the debate; I never even presented my side. Why? Because, during the Christian man's presentation I saw the light.

If I had not run into a man who could refute JW doctrine and present a believable case for biblical Christianity, would I have spent years in the JW religion? I do not know? One thing is certain: I was set to be baptized as a JW about two weeks later.

Do I think my life's path was guided by God during those years. Yes. And, I believe having the JW experience (bible studies and some church attendance) and then, seeing that it was a false religion, was the key to me wanting to help others see the light of truth; including Mormons.

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Rich Kelsey


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teoma2
Post  Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith, Oliver Cowdery and myself, received this..  |  Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2015 12:03 pm
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I would think, more so by your own intuition and intelligence, Rich.

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"When authority masquerades as a power, a simple question will unmask it."

"Just because you think, feel, or believe something is true, doesn't make it true!"

"The doubt of your faith, is not God testing you, but truth trying to emerge and free you."


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richkelsey.org
Post  Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith, Oliver Cowdery and myself, received this..  |  Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2015 12:24 pm
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teoma2 wrote:
I would think, more so by your own intuition and intelligence, Rich.

Hi teoma 2.

What's interesting about the JWs: They have a very focused program of studies to indoctrinate potential converts. Yet, I was having serious issues with some of their teachings the whole time; the thing I had the most problem with was their 1914 return of Christ doctrine. And, that Satan had been kicked out of heaven in 1914. I eventually put that on a shelf because I saw some truth in other teachings; and, I was impressed with the organization and its publications.

I even reasoned: God would not let them put the words, The Truth That Leads To Eternal Life, on their book, if it were not the truth.

Keep in mind that this was in 1975-77 when much of the religious world was expecting Armageddon at any moment. It was an exciting time to live; and, a great time to have a best-selling end-time book. Just ask Hal Lindsey.

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My LDS Series:
http://www.richkelsey.org/lds_index.html
Rich Kelsey


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teoma2
Post  Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith, Oliver Cowdery and myself, received this..  |  Posted: Mon Nov 16, 2015 12:47 pm
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All this just goes to show, that most devout, faithful followers of most organized religions have little actual knowledge or factual information concerning the real history of their organizations. So how does one successfully deal with the overall ignorance of such people? Education?

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"When authority masquerades as a power, a simple question will unmask it."

"Just because you think, feel, or believe something is true, doesn't make it true!"

"The doubt of your faith, is not God testing you, but truth trying to emerge and free you."


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leftasteen
Post  Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith, Oliver Cowdery and myself, received this..  |  Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2015 5:00 pm
Sunbeam

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I appreciate all your responses.

I want you to know, your detailed research is good if it helps people see the light. For others, it's not trivial at all. For me, it was unneccesary and I should have left it at that.

My question is truly sincere, not meant to just provoke arguement.

At the root of my question is my feelings about my own father. He was a genius mathmetician. He was a real history buff. He was smart. He would eat up research like yours about say WWII, or the Civil War. And, yet he was a Mormon who taught Gospel Doctrine classes until his dying day.

I guess I really struggle with how that can be so. To me, the nonsense became so obvious as soon as I was old enough to think for myself. My respect for my Dad and my feelings about his religion are unresolved, and destined to stay that way I guess.

About my response to missionaries: Those conversations are short when I am holding back a 90 lb German Shepherd who barked for 2 minutes before I came to the door. One time, I had my wife answer in a string bekini - they couldn't speak very well. Another time I pointed out they were actually interupting my family time. One particularly arrogant one I told JS was pedophile.


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richkelsey.org
Post  Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith, Oliver Cowdery and myself, received this..  |  Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2015 12:28 pm
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God of Elves, Seer Stones and a Hat

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leftasteen wrote:
I appreciate all your responses.

I want you to know, your detailed research is good if it helps people see the light. For others, it's not trivial at all. For me, it was unneccesary and I should have left it at that.

My question is truly sincere, not meant to just provoke arguement.

At the root of my question is my feelings about my own father. He was a genius mathmetician. He was a real history buff. He was smart. He would eat up research like yours about say WWII, or the Civil War. And, yet he was a Mormon who taught Gospel Doctrine classes until his dying day.

I guess I really struggle with how that can be so. To me, the nonsense became so obvious as soon as I was old enough to think for myself. My respect for my Dad and my feelings about his religion are unresolved, and destined to stay that way I guess.

About my response to missionaries: Those conversations are short when I am holding back a 90 lb German Shepherd who barked for 2 minutes before I came to the door. One time, I had my wife answer in a string bekini - they couldn't speak very well. Another time I pointed out they were actually interupting my family time. One particularly arrogant one I told JS was pedophile.

Hi leftasteen.

I'm glad that you responded; and, I appreciate your response.

One of the reasons I put together my series on the LDS faith is because it took me a good hour out of a 3 hour study before I even started to see the light. I still remember that night, when I first started having faith that my present (at that time) religion was wrong.

So, if other people are at all like me perhaps it would also take them a while, during a study, to see the truth?

One difference between the Elders that have come over so far and me: Not one of them has seemed to care about the truth. sigh

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My LDS Series:
http://www.richkelsey.org/lds_index.html
Rich Kelsey


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