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richkelsey.org
Post  Post subject: "He may ... sleep with his neighbor's wife every night"  |  Posted: Thu May 21, 2015 9:54 am
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"... hold on, brother Gillmore, here is the doctrine, here is the Bible, the Book of Mormon, and the revelations that have come through Joseph Smith the Prophet. ... He may get drunk every day of his life, sleep with his neighbor's wife every night, run horses and gamble, I do not care anything about that, for I never embrace any man in my faith. But the doctrine he has produced will save you and me, and the whole world; and if you can find fault with that, find it." (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 4, pp.77-78, November 9, 1856)

While defending Joseph Smith, Brigham Young said that. The Bible spoken of in the quote is the JST. Here is a small section from a work of mine on the subject:

Lost Prophecies About Joseph Smith Found?

Envision Moses from Old Testament fame, writing an introduction to Genesis, (Moses One) only to have dishonest scribes remove that work from the biblical canon. Envision corrupt scribes also going through the remaining chapters of Genesis and removing thousands of other words which Moses had written. Then, envision God raising up a seer in the latter-days; who, under divine inspiration, restored Moses’ lost words to their ancient purity:

“And that seer will I bless, and they that seek to destroy him shall be confounded; for this promise I give unto you; for I will remember you from generation to generation; and his name shall be called Joseph, and it shall be after the name of his father; and he shall be like unto you; [Moses] for the thing which the Lord shall bring forth by his hand shall bring my people unto salvation.” (Genesis 50:33)

Out of all the bibles in the world, only the Joseph Smith Translation contains this prophecy; conventional versions end at Genesis 50:26. The JST contains an extra twelve verses ending at Genesis 50:38. The “seer” mentioned in the text is referring to Joseph Smith. His father’s name was also Joseph; and, there are other details in this prophecy that fit with another supposed lost prophecy about Smith:

“And in a day when the children of men shall esteem my words as naught and take many of them from the book which thou shalt write, behold, I will raise up another like unto thee; and they shall be had again among the children of men—among as many as shall believe.” (Moses 1:41)

God is supposedly speaking to Moses about a book Moses shall write, and how men will take many words away from it; yet God will raise up another like unto Moses and the missing words shall be

“had again.”

When Joseph Smith uttered Moses’ lost words to his scribe, and then realized he was the very person spoken of in the prophecy, this was possibly one of the greatest events in the history of religion! Or, perhaps it was a bald faced lie of grandiose proportions? — Another Testament of Jesus Christ

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kgdmwork
Post  Post subject: Re: "He may ... sleep with his neighbor's wife every night"  |  Posted: Thu May 21, 2015 3:16 pm
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richkelsey.org wrote:
The JST contains an extra twelve verses ending at Genesis 50:38. The “seer” mentioned in the text is referring to Joseph Smith. His father’s name was also Joseph...


Blah. How convenient to find such a thing "restored" as a "prophecy." Convenient, indeed.

I have found NO EVIDENCE at all in support of the supposed coming forth of the Book of Mormon in the Bible. The one scripture that you are taught over and over which supposedly refers to the Bible as the Stick of Judah and the Book of Mormon as the Stick of Ephraim is NOT a reference to the BoM. Ezek. 37:16-17

Hello! According to LDS theology, Nephi came from Manasseh, not Ephraim. MAJOR OOPS! Shouldn't the claim have been that the BoM came from the tribe of Ephraim? Major GOOF!

If you want to take the BoM as a worthwhile book that agrees with the Bible in parts, then fine. Just don't tell me it fulfills prophecy. And, as for the angels coming down to bring the BoM forth, I wonder why none of them knew the difference between Ephraim and Manasseh. YIPES!


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Melanie
Post  Post subject: Re: "He may ... sleep with his neighbor's wife every night"  |  Posted: Thu May 21, 2015 3:28 pm
myself

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...only agrees with the Bible in parts because it was directly copied from the Bible, as is proven now.

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Abinadi
Post  Post subject: Re: "He may ... sleep with his neighbor's wife every night"  |  Posted: Thu May 21, 2015 9:56 pm
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I remember CLEARLY how much I believed those added verses to be absolutely true, and Joseph Smith to be the greatest man foretold, the greatest man born, and the greatest prophet we've ever had, and I felt so lucky because even though I was unworthy I knew about him and accepted his work. Okay, well, yeah, Jesus was pretty good, too. And Jesus died and stuff. But Joseph Smith, hey, he's the one that RESTORED the Gospel. Jesus did what he did and everyone forgot it and twisted it. But Smith Jr. put it back in order and did it in a way that it will never ever never be lost from the earth again. I thought, you just can't beat Joseph Smith.

Knowing what I know now, however, if I met him on the street, I'll bet I could. At least I'd try.

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richkelsey.org
Post  Post subject: Re: "He may ... sleep with his neighbor's wife every night"  |  Posted: Fri May 22, 2015 12:13 am
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Abinadi,

I have a different perspective. I ended up in bible college, living in a dorm setting, and studying the bible for years before reading word one from the Joseph Smith translation.

With my knowledge it was really easy for me to see and document anachronisms in the Book of Moses as well as doctrinal terms and concepts from Smith's day.

What I find interesting is how careless Smith was: He did not keep his story straight; yet, people still put their faith in his words even when what he maintained before was not the same as what he maintained later.

One early witness saw through this: David Whitmer. David called Smith on the carpet for changing the revelations and ended up having to get out of town before the Avenging Angels silenced him.

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joseph's myth
Post  Post subject: Re: "He may ... sleep with his neighbor's wife every night"  |  Posted: Fri May 22, 2015 7:13 am
God of Poly-Folly

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richkelsey.org wrote:


... What I find interesting is how careless Smith was: He did not keep his story straight; yet, people still put their faith in his words even when what he maintained before was not the same as what he maintained later.

One early witness saw through this: David Whitmer. David called Smith on the carpet for changing the revelations and ended up having to get out of town before the Avenging Angels silenced him.


Maybe Joseph Smith hated Christianity, sneekedly determined himself to try and remain deceiving about his true motivation, or was just a plain and everyday druggie. There are only so many options, Y'know?

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richkelsey.org
Post  Post subject: Re: "He may ... sleep with his neighbor's wife every night"  |  Posted: Fri May 22, 2015 9:03 am
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Hi Joey.

One thing is certain: Joseph Smith had a magic act, stone in a hat, at the beginning of his game; then, he put that away and started speaking as God's mouthpiece without using the stone.

I am convinced that Joseph Smith knew God was not the source of the words coming out of his mouth, or stone.

Here are some interesting quotes on this subject: http://richkelsey.org/an_address_to_all ... hrist.html

"The revelations in the Book of Commandments up to June, 1829, were given through the "stone," through which the Book of Mormon was translated. These are the only revelations that can be relied upon..." (53)

"As I have stated before, Brother Joseph gave up the stone a few months after translating the Book of Mormon. You can see from the Book of Doctrine and Covenants that the next revelation after June, 1829, is March, 1830, a period of nine months, and we had been preaching since August, 1829. Now you notice that when the revelations began to come again, at the end of this nine months (this time through Brother Joseph as "mouthpiece"), they came thick and fast, and are of a different character to those given through the stone..." (56)

"Some of the revelations as they are now in the Book of Doctrine and Covenants have been changed and added to. Some of the changes being of the greatest importance as the meaning is entirely changed on some very important matters; as if the Lord had changed his mind a few years after he gave the revelations..." (56 cont)

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joseph's myth
Post  Post subject: Re: "He may ... sleep with his neighbor's wife every night"  |  Posted: Fri May 22, 2015 10:22 am
God of Poly-Folly

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richkelsey.org wrote:
Hi Joey.

One thing is certain: Joseph Smith had a magic act, stone in a hat, at the beginning of his game; then, he put that away and started speaking as God's mouthpiece without using the stone.

I am convinced that Joseph Smith knew God was not the source of the words coming out of his mouth, or stone.



I have the feeling that after this possible druggie (just the same as his druggie experimenting dad) Joseph Smith stammered to be awakened by a bright moon or sunlight after imbibing on whatever mix of maybe mushrooms and wine, Black Jake concoction he could come up with. He thought he saw God. And his Irish heritage added gold and left out the leprechaun.


Gotta see if the internet has a drink called Black-Jake, made with Five-Wives, of course.

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{If you believe in things that you don't understand, then you suffer ~Stevie Wonder}
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kgdmwork
Post  Post subject: Re: "He may ... sleep with his neighbor's wife every night"  |  Posted: Fri May 22, 2015 10:58 am
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It's interesting how the philosophy of dualism was thrown in. It's found in the BoM and Pearl of Great Price. Dualism claims that evil and good balance each other. Light and dark. It has mythological origins. Some people who subscribe to this philosophy think it is necessary to have evil in order to appreciate good.

This is a NON-BIBLICAL philosophy, because there is only one God, who is good. All other gods are false. In the Bible, God wants you to choose good and refuse evil. Isa. 7:15

It seems that somebody involved in putting together the BoM was partial to dualism and the opposition of light and darkness. It's as if someone was including Christian thought and trying to mesh it with other philosophies.

2 Nephi 2:15
15 And to bring about his eternal purposes in the end of man, after he had created our first parents, and the beasts of the field and the fowls of the air, and in fine, all things which are created, it must needs be that there was an opposition; even the forbidden fruit in opposition to the tree of life; the one being sweet and the other bitter.

5:10 And in that day Adam blessed God and was filled, and began to prophesy concerning all the families of the earth, saying: Blessed be the name of God, for because of my transgression my eyes are opened, and in this life I shall have joy, and again in the flesh I shall see God.
5:11 And Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad, saying: Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient.


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kgdmwork
Post  Post subject: Re: "He may ... sleep with his neighbor's wife every night"  |  Posted: Fri May 22, 2015 11:03 am
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I'm seeing that the parts of the BoM and other accepted Mormon doctrinal "scripture" that always bothered me don't even agree with the Bible. They are in disagreement. God tells men to have only one wife and no concubines, UNLESS he so decrees otherwise. What is that? Does anyone know if the UNLESS clause was added later?

It seems to me in the creation of the BoM there was some attempt to seize on the religious frenzy rampant in that time by creating a document that was primarily Christian in its thought. But then, with success and a power base, plural marriage became a nice little tidbit that the men wanted to add in later, to justify adultery. So now we have conflict, because God is not being consistent. Does God delight in the chastity of women or not? He does. But ... wait. We gotta have an UNLESS clause.

There is nothing in the Bible that really justifies adultery or breaking the laws of chastity, and there isn't anything in the BoM, either. So! Lo and behold! We get D&C 132. Belatedly. I'm supposed to buy that Abraham is sitting on his throne, with 100s of concubines sitting on his lap?

Personally, I think I'll just throw out anything in any "scripture" that doesn't agree with the principle of goodness, i.e., God is good, and the author of all good, which includes faithful, loyal, and true marriages.

You are not going to get me to believe God is the author of satisfying your lusts. That's men's idea.


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ngabriel03
Post  Post subject: Re: "He may ... sleep with his neighbor's wife every night"  |  Posted: Tue May 26, 2015 3:00 pm
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Wonder if all that gold was melted down as dowry for many wives.


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productofchoice
Post  Post subject: Re: "He may ... sleep with his neighbor's wife every night"  |  Posted: Wed May 27, 2015 1:25 pm
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Jacob 2:30 wrote:
For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.

So that's the escape clause in the plain and precious truths of the BoM.

It looks like that clause was there in the original 1830 first edition.
http://josephsmithpapers.org/paperSumma ... 1830&p=133

The Fanny Alger incident was 1833 so that first edition of the BoM predated it.

http://www.i4m.com/think/polygamy/JS_Po ... meline.htm

The BoM was pretty anti-masonry ... another taboo that reversed.

Peace

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kgdmwork
Post  Post subject: Re: "He may ... sleep with his neighbor's wife every night"  |  Posted: Wed May 27, 2015 4:05 pm
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Well, as I pointed out to my dad when we got into a fight about plural marriage, raising up seed can be a bad thing. And the progeny of plural marriages in the Bible turned out to be BAD. Just take Amnon. He raped his sister Tamar and threw her out.

My dad can be reasonable only so far. He admits most men who think they're going to be married in heaven are in for a shock. But when he can sense I'm going to criticize church doctrine, he gets defensive in the extreme. The last time I asked him about plural marriage, he said I had no right to complain against it, since I was the product of a plural marriage in the past.

I said that if the only judgment was whether or not having sex produced seed, then a fornicator who produced two or three children out of wedlock was to be congratulated!

My dad had to laugh and back off. I got him on that one!


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Leonardo
Post  Post subject: Re: "He may ... sleep with his neighbor's wife every night"  |  Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2015 8:53 am
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kgdmwork wrote:
Hello! According to LDS theology, Nephi came from Manasseh, not Ephraim. MAJOR OOPS! Shouldn't the claim have been that the BoM came from the tribe of Ephraim? Major GOOF!


*Sigh.* Nephi did come from Ephraim, he just didn't make a big deal out of it. */sigh.*


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Abinadi
Post  Post subject: Re: "He may ... sleep with his neighbor's wife every night"  |  Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2015 11:11 pm
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I'm pretty sure Nephi was a descendant of Manasseh according to the Book of Mormon which many people reject including people who claim to believe it. It takes no great imagination to invent other genealogies for Biblical or Mormonical people.
Quote:
"And Aminadi was a descendant of Nephi, who was the son of Lehi, who came out of the land of Jerusalem, who was a descendant of Manasseh, who was the son of Joseph who was sold into Egypt by the hands of his brethren." - Alma 10:3
"Lehi and Nephi never mentioned which tribe they were from other than to say that they were of Joseph (1 Ne 5:14). It is only through Amulek that we learn that they were through Manasseh. Not all the Nephite blood was through Manasseh. Joseph Smith taught that in the 116 lost pages, the genealogy of Ishmael was given to be through Ephraim. Also, we know that Mulek was of Judah. Therefore, among the Nephites and Lamanites, there were descendants of Ephraim, Manasseh, and Judah."

In The Articles of Faith, James E. Talmage cites the prophet Joseph as teaching the doctrine that Ishmael was from Ephraim:

James E. Talmage, A Study of the Articles of Faith, p.504-5) wrote:
– ‘The Prophet Joseph Smith informed us that the record of Lehi was contained on the one hundred sixteen pages that were first translated and subsequently stolen, and of which an abridgment is given us in the First Book of Nephi, which is the record of Nephi individually, he himself being of the lineage of Manasseh; but that Ishmael was of the lineage of Ephraim, and that his sons married into Lehi's family, and Lehi's sons married Ishmael's daughters, thus fulfilling the words of Jacob upon Ephraim and Manasseh in the 48th chapter of Genesis [verse 16] which says: 'And let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth.' Thus these descendants of Manasseh and Ephraim grew together upon this American continent, with a sprinkling from the house of Judah, from Mulek descended, who left Jerusalem eleven years after Lehi, and founded the colony afterwards known as Zarahemla found by Mosiah -- thus making a combination, an intermixture of Ephraim and Manasseh with the remnants of Judah, and for aught we know, the remnants of some other tribes that might have accompanied Mulek.’ -- From "Discourse by Apostle Erastus Snow," at Logan, Utah, May 6, 1882, see Journal of Discourses, vol. 23, pp. 184, 185.”
)


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leftasteen
Post  Post subject: Re: "He may ... sleep with his neighbor's wife every night"  |  Posted: Fri Jan 29, 2016 6:16 pm
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All this research seems so arcane to me.

I was taught that the church has modern and contemporary revelation from God to modern prophets. That makes the church either all true, or all false.

Since it's clear God did not change his mind about Eternal truths on polygamy and blacks several times, clearly the leaderships is not being directed by God. These two are just the two most obvious examples.

It's either all true, or all false. No middle ground here. No reason to research the mundane details of every lie. If even one or two lies are evident, then it's ALL FALSE.


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productofchoice
Post  Post subject: Re: "He may ... sleep with his neighbor's wife every night"  |  Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2016 8:47 am
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leftasteen wrote:
...It's either all true, or all false. No middle ground here. No reason to research the mundane details of every lie. If even one or two lies are evident, then it's ALL FALSE.


Seems like a fair statement to me.

Kimball says in the Miracle that you can actually be forgiven that if you return to your sin they all come back.

And in the Bible (James 2:10) says that if you have broken one law you have broken them all.

Moses 6:57, 1 Nephi 15:34, 3 Nephi 27:19 all echo the thought that no unclean thing can enter the kingdom of God.

D&C 121 says that if you try to cover up your sins, Amen to your priesthood authority.

Yeah, seems like they can't allow any of these oop's to really be considered as sins, lies or mistakes of God or of the Leadership, only that of faulty workers who were acting as men.

Peace

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Abinadi
Post  Post subject: Re: "He may ... sleep with his neighbor's wife every night"  |  Posted: Tue Feb 02, 2016 6:11 pm
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leftasteen wrote:
All this research seems so arcane to me.

I was taught that the church has modern and contemporary revelation from God to modern prophets. That makes the church either all true, or all false.

... No reason to research the mundane details of every lie. If even one or two lies are evident, then it's ALL FALSE.
You are so right! Joseph Smith expounded some bizarre doctrines (or "teachings"), even if he did get them from outside sources such as Thomas Dick, William Shakespeare, contemporary revival sermons, and local tall tales. Although he did that, it seems to me that Brigham Young is more to be blamed for the eerie tone of that arcane part of Mormon "mysteries" which, once expounded, are not to be "dwelt upon" nor on the other hand even questioned. So there are many threads - Joseph Smith taught confounding doctrine. That is, it confounded him and the people who heard it. Then Brigham Young taught incredible (literally incredible) doctrines, and in such a way that some among them refuted others among them.

I do believe, however, that any church or ideology or set of beliefs, can be part true and part false. In fact, probably every one of them is! The lie that you are talking about, if I understand correctly, is to say the prophet is infallible on points of doctrine (or maybe on everything?) - and thus, if a prophet expounds any doctrine that has a falsehood in it, he is either a fallible prophet or not a prophet at all, for which two conditions there isn't much distinction. For example, if a prophet were to say, "There is opposition in all things," and it was found that there was not opposition in all things, that would be a problem for the prophet and the people who want to believe he is infallible.

What is the opposition that exists in opposition to
the principle that there is opposition in all things! - ? (Crazy, huh?)


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