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kgdmwork
Post  Post subject: A prophet? Or just a religious leader?  |  Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2015 3:13 pm
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Lately I've come to the determination that the LDS "presidents" are not actually prophets, but religious leaders. Why? Were they out working in the farm, like Elisha, who was called to serve while out in a field plowing on his father's farm? Or did they serve in various leadership positions in the church, working their way "up"? It's the latter. No modern-day "prophet" was called by God to prophesy of the wickedness of this generation. They all have served as bishops, stake presidents, and "apostles" before they make it to "prophet." Is that how God calls his prophets into service? NO! The Lord does not work through echelons and status. He works directly, through those who are humble and pure in heart.

I submit that the so-called LDS "prophets" of this generation are nothing more than religious leaders who have worked their way up through the ranks. They might be striving to be good people, but they are not prophets, because a prophet will be called directly of God, sometimes even before he was born, like Samuel.

Even the titles they use are secular. "Branch President." "Stake president." "President." Yeah.


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teoma2
Post  Post subject: Re: A prophet? Or just a religious leader?  |  Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2015 6:30 am
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Now you're catching on Kgdmwork. He was an alleged prophet who was never called, as he called himself, and started the Mormon Movement, by doing so.

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Abinadi
Post  Post subject: Re: A prophet? Or just a religious leader?  |  Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2015 1:58 pm
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If I were to be extra technical, I would say they are not even religious leaders. They are ecclesiastical leaders - in fact, "ecclesiarchs"! Religious means pious, devout, godly, scrupulous, conscientious. Some of those terms apply to modern Presidents. In my opinion, some are not pious but sanctimonious, putting on a show of religion (and sometimes of spirituality) but falling back into defensive postures, self-pride, self-contradiction, and even some moral and logical hypocrisy. They are conscientious about their handling of their administration, but not particularly about their reasoning, and not about the application of their own standards. This is my opinion and belief. I mean no disrespect in this case, but am saying this only descriptively (not accusatorially).

Image

(Okay, I admit, the picture is a little accusatorial.)

Ecclesiarch or sacristan - an official (administrative burocrat?) in charge of sacred instruments or church, temple, etc.


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kgdmwork
Post  Post subject: Re: A prophet? Or just a religious leader?  |  Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 4:03 pm
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Abinadi wrote:
...some are not pious but sanctimonious, putting on a show of religion (and sometimes of spirituality) but falling back into defensive postures, self-pride, self-contradiction, and even some moral and logical hypocrisy.



Yes. And the whole thing becomes a human construct, wherein you have some sense of being "royalty" if you have the right "family connections." Yuck. And bragging about how many new temples we have, while not ever admitting that nobody really cares what the Lord wants done there. They just treat it like some special social club which they get to attend if they pay a full tithing. Bluck! How many worthless conference talks do I have to go through, anyway? If any of them seem to be about obeying the Lord, somewhere tucked inside will be the idea that man is superior to God. They are so fond of their free will and using it freely to please themselves.

As for the title "apostles," that is just copied from the New Testament. It has no meaning. They are not apostles. They have not the keys and powers directly, nor are they using them the way they ought. HEY! If the priesthood were really using the powers of heaven, priesthood meeting would be crowded every week with people coming to be healed and made whole. The lame would walk, the deaf would hear. But, instead, we have men sitting around, acting lame and deaf.

No pool of Siloam here! John 9:7

HEY! I want to know where the power is. You shall know the tree by its fruits. The Lord gave his apostles the power to raise people from the dead. Why aren't we seeing that every Sunday? Why aren't hometeachers doing it? Why is conference just about giving talks and not about using the powers of heaven to heal people?

We do not have apostles in this generation. We have Mormons walking around, supposedly following Christ, and yet not. If they were following Christ, where are the fruits? Where are the sick being healed by a mere shadow?

Yeah. What we get are men sitting around, watching the clock, hoping to go home soon to their football game.

Some keys and powers of priesthood authority here! Like, RIGHT!


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kgdmwork
Post  Post subject: Re: A prophet? Or just a religious leader?  |  Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 4:05 pm
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And another thing from Monson's talk. He gave this great story about a former missionary whose prayers were answered in the temple. Well, did the temple answer his prayers, or did the Lord? So the Lord isn't allowed into the temple to answer prayers, just like he does everywhere else? Oh, not if it's Jesus answering those prayers, right? How dare you pray to Jesus!

So now we have the temple answering prayers instead of Jesus. Geesh!


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productofchoice
Post  Post subject: Re: A prophet? Or just a religious leader?  |  Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2015 7:29 am
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Prophets should be postmen, who deliver messages.

They are not the message.

They are not the one who decides what the message is.

They are not the one who tells you how to use the message.

They don't control whether the sender puts money in the letter ... or a bill.

They don't get thanked for the contents of the package, or blamed either.

They need to use care to deliver the message to the right person ... you don't need to be paying my bills for example.

They are not responsible for what the recipient does with the package and they are not responsible for whether the check cashes or bounces.

They may need to go to the rough side of town to deliver a package ... or maybe to a manor house.

They don't run an organization.

When my wife and I were dating long distance, we sometimes used letters to communicate. Now we communicate in person. Prophets and temples were an old way of communicating where today we have direct access. The temple veil was rent. The temple was later destroyed. The walls that separated man from God were removed.

That's how I see the role of a prophet and the temple.

Peace

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"For nothing is secret, that shall not be made manifest; neither any thing hid, that shall not be known and come abroad." - Luke 8:17


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kgdmwork
Post  Post subject: Re: A prophet? Or just a religious leader?  |  Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2015 11:05 am
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Remember what Moses told Joshua when the people of Israel were prophesying in the camp?

Num11:29 And Moses said unto him, Enviest thou for my sake? would God that all the LORD's people were prophets, and that the LORD would put his spirit upon them!

Each and every individual should have the sort of relationship with the Lord that no prophet is necessary. Come boldly to the throne of grace. Yourself.


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productofchoice
Post  Post subject: Re: A prophet? Or just a religious leader?  |  Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2015 1:03 pm
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Quote:
Each and every individual should have the sort of relationship with the Lord that no prophet is necessary. Come boldly to the throne of grace. Yourself.


Amen KGDM.

Should is a key word and I think there is still a place for prophecy, but it's different than it used to be before the Holy Spirit was sent.

Peace

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I resigned from the Church of THE Jesus Christ of the Latter Day Saints (Feb 2011)

"For nothing is secret, that shall not be made manifest; neither any thing hid, that shall not be known and come abroad." - Luke 8:17


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Melanie
Post  Post subject: Re: A prophet? Or just a religious leader?  |  Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2015 2:50 pm
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The OT and NT are full of prophets/prophetesses and prophecies. Can't do without them. No Gospel without them. Men and women called to be prophets and prophetesses today. Actual point is that such people are not found in cults.

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How to heal? http://media.blubrry.com/mormonexpressi ... ion225.mp3


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Abinadi
Post  Post subject: Re: A prophet? Or just a religious leader?  |  Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2015 3:34 pm
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Newsmax has a published a list of "top 100 Christian Leaders in America." Thomas Monson is number 13. I kid you not. This list includes at least one dead guy - Billy Graham. Graham moved the nation in the 50s and 60s, and was admired and listened to until his death. Even Presidents met with him in the White House. He is dead. Other dead leaders could have been named but were not: Jonathan Edwards, George Whitefield, Alexander Campbell, Charles Finney, Lorezno Dow, Ellen G. White, William Miller, tons more. Men and women who had performed substantial, concrete, lasting improvements in their denomination and in society. But they were not named.

Newsmax listed a lot of people that are undoubtedly important and accomplished: motivational televangelists like Joel Osteen and Creflo Dollar and John Hagee; inspirational authors like Tim LaHaye and Chuck Norris; politician and political community activists like Marjorie Dannenfelser, founder and president of the Susan B. Anthony List PAC, and Mike Huckabee, former governor of Arkansas, Southern Baptist minister; Christian philanthropists like golfer Bubba Watson and Tom Monaghan, founder of Domino's Pizza; entertainers like Brian Welch, Christian metal rocker, and Michael Sweet, Christian rocker, lead singer of Stryper and Boston.

There are also several names alongside of no religious leadership accomplishments are listed (they may have them, but either they were not listed, or I did not understand what they were), but only their offices: David Green, CEO of Hobby Lobby, Rick Santorum, former U.S. senator, potential 2016 GOP presidential candidate,\ and Catholic lay leader, Tim Tebow, ESPN commentator and NFL quarterback recently picked up by the Philadelphia Eagles, Vashti Murphy McKenzie, first-ever female bishop of the African Methodist Episcopal Church, first woman pastor of Payne Memorial AME Church in Baltimore, Marjorie Dannenfelser, founder and president of the Susan B. Anthony List PAC, Marjorie Dannenfelser, founder and president of the Susan B. Anthony List PAC, Russell Hittinger, professor of Catholic Studies at the University of Tulsa, and so on.

A Top 100 Christian Leaders in America finalist? Or: "A prophet? Or just a religious leader?" Or: just a functionary?


Mormon leaders seem to work on two cylinders: boast and coast.

What has Thomas Monson accomplished, comparable even roughly, to the initiators and powerhouses of the Great Awakening; comparable to the success of certain televangelists in motivating non-Christians to "turn their lives over to Christ;" to launch a new business not obligated to pay church leaders a dividend; to write a book comparable to Andy Andrews (#10 in inspiring books sold on Amazon versus Monson's books with seller rank from. #143,269 to #596,742). Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying he is unaccomplished. And I am not saying that the Amazon rank of his books prove them to be uninspiring. I am asking, if that inspiration exists, what is it? If he is accomplished outside of Church bureaucracy, what are his accomplishments?

He was bishop in a ward with 85 widows (this is on his official website). He was president of the church's Canadian Mission for about 3 years. He has been active in Boy Scouts, but I did not read of any inventions, programs, or membership drives in which he stood out. He worked for the Deseret News daily newspaper in Salt Lake City as an advertising executive. He later became general manager of the Deseret News Press. He was working when he was called to be an Apostle

When ordained President of the Church, in response to reporters' questions, Monson explained, “I believe in that spirit.” His two new counselors acknowledged Monson's commitment to people: “I’ve come to know of his goodness,” said President Eyring. “I know of his heart, his soul, his commitment, his wonderful love for the people,” agreed President Uchtdorf. Yes, but . . . the proof is in the pudding. Where is the pudding? What is it - vanilla, or chocolate, or mélange? Why should this man be listed #13 above Chuck Norris, of all people! Above crooner Pat Boone! I suppose a number of other people on the list have also been included more for the office they hold than for the quality of their accomplishments.


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Abinadi
Post  Post subject: Re: A prophet? Or just a religious leader?  |  Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2015 3:37 pm
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Melanie wrote:
The OT and NT are full of prophets/prophetesses and prophecies. Can't do without them. No Gospel without them. Men and women called to be prophets and prophetesses today. Actual point is that such people are not found in cults.
When prophets came to Israel it was usually to scold and warn them for their misbehavior. So the prophets were actually outside the culture or religious circle of the people they were speaking to. When prophets come from within, welcome by the leaders and followers of a religion, that prophet is possibly an aspirant for a leadership role within the established church. When a prophet wants to make a difference, to improve things, the church, through its leaders especially, but also through its followers, reject and persecute him. At least I think that was the way it was in a lot of the Old Testament.


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kgdmwork
Post  Post subject: Re: A prophet? Or just a religious leader?  |  Posted: Mon May 04, 2015 11:53 am
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Abinadi wrote:
When prophets came to Israel it was usually to scold and warn them for their misbehavior. So the prophets were actually outside the culture or religious circle of the people they were speaking to. When prophets come from within, welcome by the leaders and followers of a religion, that prophet is possibly an aspirant for a leadership role within the established church. When a prophet wants to make a difference, to improve things, the church, through its leaders especially, but also through its followers, reject and persecute him. At least I think that was the way it was in a lot of the Old Testament.


You NAILED this one right on its head! A true prophet is unpopular, because he will be calling the people to repentance, and that's the last thing people want to hear.

Monson's watered-down repentance message, if ever uttered, is designed not to "offend." OH! The big thing is now not to offend, is it? You will ALWAYS cause offense if you are speaking in defense of righteousness. You will ALWAYS cause offense if you point out that even those who think they are righteous are not meeting God's standards.

Hey, as far as I'm concerned, the LDS church has been tried and found wanting. Nobody really cares about adultery, fornication, lying, supercilious attitudes .... Yeah. It's all about culture and appearances. Oh, let's send this guy on a mission, because everybody expects it and it looks good. Never mind that his mind and heart are far removed from God and he's not remotely walking in godly ways! Hey! It's a cultural accomplishment to go on a mission.

My mom said when my dad was a bishop he knew of people lying about stuff all the time to pass the "interviews." Once, somewhere in the stake a Mormon guy had gotten a Mormon girl pregnant out of wedlock and pretended nothing had happened. He had all his papers in and was ready to go on his mission when she became so stressed from hiding this from her parents that she went to her bishop for advice. So the guy was not allowed to go on his mission. (FINALLY!) But his parents tore into the leadership, screaming stuff about how their son should be allowed to go. Why? It's social status, people! Nobody cares that the purpose of going on a mission should be to bring people to Christ and salvation (nondenomination salvation, I might add). They just want the prestige.

GEESH! Where is Monson in rebuking the people openly for this? Hey, religious culture will not get you into heaven. Only loving God gets you into heaven.


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leftasteen
Post  Post subject: Re: A prophet? Or just a religious leader?  |  Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2015 10:18 pm
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They are business executives. Clear and simple. The church at the top is a business and social network.

How otherwise intelligent Mormons fall for all this ridiculous nonsense is beyond me. How my parents fell for it their entire lives is beyond me.

Prophet? No. CEO, yes.


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