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richkelsey.org
Post  Post subject: two LDS missionaries are riding their bicycles ...  |  Posted: Mon Dec 16, 2013 4:34 pm
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God of Elves, Seer Stones and a Hat

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Location: Bellevue, WA

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So, I'm outside and two LDS missionaries are riding their bicycles down the street. They get off their bikes, and one man says, "Hi, I'm Elder Stevens, what's your name."

I reply: "I'm Rich Kelsey."

I go on to say: "I've written eight articles on Mormonism and about 20 smaller works."

Stevens asks: "What are the articles about?"

I reply: "Early LDS history."

I ask: "Have you heard of a man named Josiah Stowell?"

The answer was: "No."

I ask: "Have you heard of a man named Joseph Knight?"

The answer was: "No."

I explain: "These were two of Joseph Smith's close associates back in the late 1820s and early 1830s."

[These men had no idea that Stowell and Knight were at the Smith home the day Joseph Smith supposedly obtained the gold plates]

I then ask: "Have you heard of Martin Harris?"

The answer was: "Yes!"

We talked and I soon discovered that they had never heard about Martin's interview in Tiffany's magazine; neither had they heard about Joseph Smith's 1826 Glass Looking Trial.

Elder Stevens asked me: "What is glass looking?"

I answered. The other elder looked like he was in a state of shock with every detail I brought forth: including the account of Smith seeing a dead Indian watching over buried treasure, which was testimony brought up in the 1826 trial; and, the early accounts of [Moroni] having also been slain on the spot to watch over the golden plates.

Then, Elder Stevens asked me if I had ever been to an LDS Church service.

This is kind of funny: one of the last times I spoke with Elders they too had no answers, yet, invited me to a Church service before riding off.

So, I'm thinking the one elder may have been thinking, perhaps if I hear people bearing testimony I will be won over to the LDS faith?

My final words were: "When you get a chance, read Martin Harris' interview in Tiffany's Monthly."

Then I thought: I really need to finish my work entitled: , The [Un] Official LDS Missionary Guidebook

So, the next set of Missionaries will not be as clueless.

_________________
My LDS Series:
http://www.richkelsey.org/lds_index.html
Rich Kelsey


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Melanie
Post  Post subject: Re: two LDS missionaries are riding their bicycles ...  |  Posted: Mon Dec 16, 2013 6:35 pm
myself

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:)

But how are you going to get them to read it Rich!

Great conversation.

Now I am ready with my conversation for Elders and there is no sign of any anywhere!

_________________
Why leave? http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... 989OOSOycw
How to heal? http://media.blubrry.com/mormonexpressi ... ion225.mp3


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richkelsey.org
Post  Post subject: Re: two LDS missionaries are riding their bicycles ...  |  Posted: Mon Dec 16, 2013 7:45 pm
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God of Elves, Seer Stones and a Hat

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Lilly wrote:
:)

But how are you going to get them to read it Rich!

Great conversation.

Now I am ready with my conversation for Elders and there is no sign of any anywhere!

Lilly,

I still feel I did the right thing by informing them of early LDS history, which is contradictory to what they've been spoon-fed; because, they needed a wake-up call.

Yet, reflecting upon the visit, in a way I wish I could have sympathized with them more. It's very possible that they were pressured into going on the mission, and perhaps they even have doubts about the Church.

Just yesterday I was reading the schedule missionaries are to abide by at LDS.org, I believe it was in the handbook: Preach My Gospel.

These poor souls.

God knows I have a heart for them.

I also spelled out exactly what was said to and by me in my opening post. Yet, one thing I did not mention: I was about three blocks from where I live when they spotted me, walking my bike up a steep hill. They were coming down the hill. I had no intention of sharing my take on the LDS faith with them. We could have went our separate ways. It was they who approached me. They wanted to convert me to Mormonism. The only problem: I know too much.

Rich


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Melanie
Post  Post subject: Re: two LDS missionaries are riding their bicycles ...  |  Posted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 5:03 am
myself

Joined: Sat Jun 22, 2013 4:34 pm
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Absolutely.
It is great they approached you. Perhaps their spirits recognised that it was you who had something to offer them and not the other way round.

_________________
Why leave? http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... 989OOSOycw
How to heal? http://media.blubrry.com/mormonexpressi ... ion225.mp3


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teoma2
Post  Post subject: Re: two LDS missionaries are riding their bicycles ...  |  Posted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 9:03 am
God of Mythbusters

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Rich, don't be too surprised if they seek you out sometime in the future. Opportunities like that are few and far in between.

_________________
"When authority masquerades as a power, a simple question will unmask it."

"Just because you think, feel, or believe something is true, doesn't make it true!"

"The doubt of your faith, is not God testing you, but truth trying to emerge and free you."


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productofchoice
Post  Post subject: Re: two LDS missionaries are riding their bicycles ...  |  Posted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 9:15 am
God

Joined: Wed Apr 06, 2011 12:49 pm
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A little while back the missionaries stopped by our house.

I invited them in and called my wife down.

After a little chit-chat, we asked why they were there and explained that we left the LDS church and why and then spent 20 or so minutes speaking to them mostly about Jesus. They got a lesson and it was awesome.

The young greenie wanted to come back and was trying to setup a followup appointment. We new they would not be allowed to come back because of our name removal, but sometime before this he friended both of us on facebook.

The older guy who was on month 20 or so ... he was a little more aware that he had lost grips on the discussion. In the end he prayed and that was fine. We left (at least in my perspective) on positive and friendly terms. They heard that we had not left to run off and sin and that we didn't have our feelings hurt. We believe in God and Jesus. That's not the model of the person whom Utchdork says leaves the church.

So why bring that up in this discussion?

My wife made a comment and I think it's a great one. She said that their visit was a divine appointment ... meaning that God brought us together at that point in time for a purpose. She said that to the elders.

Rich, your appointment was a bit of a divine appointment. Those are the most effective ones IMHO. Lilly, you'll have them too.

Now as to the results of those sorts of discussions.

When a seed is planted, the immediate appearance is one of failure. Work is done and attention is paid but the evidence is buried and appears dead. It takes warm soil and water and time before the seed grows and the results become evident.

And who's to say, as Rich hinted, our words might be the first they hear or we might be the last that they need to hear or something in between.

Peace

_________________
I resigned from the Church of THE Jesus Christ of the Latter Day Saints (Feb 2011)

"For nothing is secret, that shall not be made manifest; neither any thing hid, that shall not be known and come abroad." - Luke 8:17


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teoma2
Post  Post subject: Re: two LDS missionaries are riding their bicycles ...  |  Posted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 9:28 am
God of Mythbusters

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And who thinks now, that the Internet tied in with social media like Facebook can't keep sowing those little mustard seeds of doubt?

_________________
"When authority masquerades as a power, a simple question will unmask it."

"Just because you think, feel, or believe something is true, doesn't make it true!"

"The doubt of your faith, is not God testing you, but truth trying to emerge and free you."


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Scousette
Post  Post subject: Re: two LDS missionaries are riding their bicycles ...  |  Posted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:09 am
Elder

Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2011 12:42 pm
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Mmm - when I was having my visits from the mishies last year, they never ever managed to get through whatever they'd come prepared with. They were in my home so it was my agenda. & as a single female, there were always 3 of them so quite an audience. I have a couple of visible buddhist artefacts and was always able, if needed, to reach up to my bookcase for material to show them about other belief systems. &, of course, my laptop was always on in case there was anything we needed to fact check. I like to think that they were exposed to quite a mental (& possibly emotional) pummeling. Not in an aggressive way - we always parted on cordial terms - but it would've become evident to them pretty quickly that there was no vulnerability that they were going to be able to play on or manipulate. & they'd better give some thought to whatever was going to pour forth from their mouths - I wasn't about to tolerate sloppy thinking.


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smartenough
Post  Post subject: Re: two LDS missionaries are riding their bicycles ...  |  Posted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 2:19 pm
High Priest

Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2011 3:28 pm
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Location: New England

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richkelsey.org wrote:
Lilly wrote:
:)

But how are you going to get them to read it Rich!

Great conversation.

Now I am ready with my conversation for Elders and there is no sign of any anywhere!

Lilly,

I still feel I did the right thing by informing them of early LDS history, which is contradictory to what they've been spoon-fed; because, they needed a wake-up call.

Yet, reflecting upon the visit, in a way I wish I could have sympathized with them more. It's very possible that they were pressured into going on the mission, and perhaps they even have doubts about the Church.

Just yesterday I was reading the schedule missionaries are to abide by at LDS.org, I believe it was in the handbook: Preach My Gospel.

These poor souls.

God knows I have a heart for them.

I also spelled out exactly what was said to and by me in my opening post. Yet, one thing I did not mention: I was about three blocks from where I live when they spotted me, walking my bike up a steep hill. They were coming down the hill. I had no intention of sharing my take on the LDS faith with them. We could have went our separate ways. It was they who approached me. They wanted to convert me to Mormonism. The only problem: I know too much.

Rich




I run into the same thing when I also get a chance to talk to LDS Missionaries about the real LDS church History and not the whitewashed Church story that is fed to members.


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Abinadi
Post  Post subject: Re: two LDS missionaries are riding their bicycles ...  |  Posted: Thu Dec 19, 2013 12:31 pm
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I'm dumb! "What is glass looking?" I've been so aware of so much for so long, that I guess I was assuming everyone knew what glass looking was. I had the same shock when two missionaries visited me, saw my library of about 20 Bible versions plus commentaries and research tools. One asked, "Why do you have so many Bibles? Is it because you like to study the different doctrines they teach?" My jaw dropped. I had forgotten. Mormons believe that the reason there are different versions (translations) of the Bible is because when someone wanted to teach a doctrine at odds with what the Bible actually teaches, he would write a new "version" (edited). I tried to explain that the doctrines are the same. It is the language - aspects, tense, constructs, etc., that are different, and I like reading the different ones to get closer to the original sense of time, duration, relations, etc.

A pair of missionaries came to teach me and some friends. We got them to agree to listen to our teaching first, and then we would listen to theirs. I taught. After I got done, and they realized I had been a Mormon, they weren't interested in teaching. I could tell that what I said had a powerful, converting affect on the junior companion. The senior companion had to take him by the arm and say let's go. If he hadn't, the junior companion would have stayed and asked questions and left the Mormon church. I like to think that point in his life was a turning point. I like to think he studied more, realized what he was in, and left the Church for something better.

_________________
"Prove it!" - Tarquinius Septem

"Everyone has to find his own path." - Ip-Man


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teoma2
Post  Post subject: Re: two LDS missionaries are riding their bicycles ...  |  Posted: Fri Dec 20, 2013 7:55 am
God of Mythbusters

Joined: Sat Feb 28, 2009 8:30 am
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From my research, "glass looking" is comparable to fortune telling made possible by looking or gazing into a crystal glass ball. Traveling carnivals and circus groups usually had a side show featuring some fortune telling tent or booth. Hence term "glass looking." My neighbor thought it related to being a Peeping Tom personage. When people stopped believing in fortune telling mediated thru a mysterious ball reading or gazing, business waned and eventually disappeared. Then out came the Ouiji boards, and psychic mediums to fill the void.

_________________
"When authority masquerades as a power, a simple question will unmask it."

"Just because you think, feel, or believe something is true, doesn't make it true!"

"The doubt of your faith, is not God testing you, but truth trying to emerge and free you."


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