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thews
Post  Post subject: Re: For Abish-Questions about NOM's  |  Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2011 6:08 am
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thews wrote:
@Abish - Would you agree that rejecting polygamy (Per the D&C 132:4) would damn the person who rejected it?

http://www.lds-mormon.com/132.shtml
Quote:
4 For behold, I reveal unto you a new and an everlasting covenant; and if ye abide not that covenant, then are ye damned; for no one can reject this covenant and be permitted to enter into my glory.

@Liz... same question.


Abish wrote:
I would say rejecting God's WILL would damn the person.
It doesn't matter what God commands me to do. Matter is if I reject WHATEVER God asks me to do.

Then I can assume you believe it's God's will to practice polygamy as Joseph Smith claimed?

Abish wrote:
Would you agree that rejecting to kill own son would damn the person who rejected it?

I suppose, but I'd take the damnation.

Abish wrote:
I wouldn't agree. But I would agree that if Abraham rejected to sacrifice/kill Isaak it would damn him.

I disagree. I take the bible for its message and reject some of it; like hell, as I don't believe it exists. I find it interesting though how Mormons throw the bible under the bus to explain away what doesn't make sense in Mormonism. I guess two negatives somehow cancel each other out to appease the cognitive dissonance associated with placing belief in something you know is inherently wrong.

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Tim 4:3 For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine..they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.


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productofchoice
Post  Post subject: Re: For Abish-Questions about NOM's  |  Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2011 8:08 am
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Abish wrote:
I wouldn't agree. But I would agree that if Abraham rejected to sacrifice/kill Isaak it would damn him.


Who perfectly keeps God's will? Who perfectly keeps all of the commandments? All are damned then.

Who says Abraham would be any more damned for not sacrificing his son then a Elder who wasn't 100% at home teaching or a sister who didn't magnify all of her callings or a teen who did not bridle his passions?

Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him as righteousness.

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"For nothing is secret, that shall not be made manifest; neither any thing hid, that shall not be known and come abroad." - Luke 8:17


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Abinadi
Post  Post subject: Re: For Abish-Questions about NOM's  |  Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2011 9:23 am
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Philosoraptor88 wrote:
I have many reasons to show for why I do not believe that the specific christian theistic deity does not exist, ....
Hi, Philosoraptor88. I have long contended that a big problem with modern Christian teachings is that they lack a "specific christian theistic deity". Often, deity gets portrayed as a human being, an old man, or three men, or two men and an amorphous Thing (Holy Ghost/Spirit). I do not believe there is any reasonably detailed specific description of the God of the New Testament. Philosophers and true theologians make an effort. I'm thinking of thomastic theologians in particular. Even Hindu religious philosophers, imo, offer a more precise definition (whether with or without attributes) of "deity".

It's awfully hard to get a consensus on specifics for the Christian idea of God. Mormons have it easier, because they simply describe a man, which is what their image of God is, a man. NOMs, imo, are in a more enviable position, as they seem to be more open to trying to figure out what their deity really is like, rather than accept 2-dimensional cut-outs of an accidental, finite, anthropomorphic god. :-)

But I love 'em all anyway.

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Philosoraptor88
Post  Post subject: Re: For Abish-Questions about NOM's  |  Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2011 1:15 pm
Abinadi wrote:
Philosoraptor88 wrote:
I have many reasons to show for why I do not believe that the specific christian theistic deity does not exist, ....
Hi, Philosoraptor88. I have long contended that a big problem with modern Christian teachings is that they lack a "specific christian theistic deity". Often, deity gets portrayed as a human being, an old man, or three men, or two men and an amorphous Thing (Holy Ghost/Spirit). I do not believe there is any reasonably detailed specific description of the God of the New Testament. Philosophers and true theologians make an effort. I'm thinking of thomastic theologians in particular. Even Hindu religious philosophers, imo, offer a more precise definition (whether with or without attributes) of "deity".

It's awfully hard to get a consensus on specifics for the Christian idea of God. Mormons have it easier, because they simply describe a man, which is what their image of God is, a man. NOMs, imo, are in a more enviable position, as they seem to be more open to trying to figure out what their deity really is like, rather than accept 2-dimensional cut-outs of an accidental, finite, anthropomorphic god. :-)

But I love 'em all anyway.




Absolutely. It is a large issue of the past religions that normally (not normatively) they tend to have a very generalized conception of their specific entity of worship. Usually when we talk about the standard western theistic deity, we consider what Anselm's version of God is, who is contained within the Ontological Argument for the Existence of God. Anselm defines God as "The Being Than Which No Greater Is Possible". And in this he says that God, in the very least, must contain the properties of Omniscience, Omnipotence, Perfectly Loving, and Perfectly Just, and Existence.

The reason it becomes so easy to start philosophical inquiry as to the impossibility of these sorts of deities is because they define them in this way. Even the Mormon version of God, as far as I am aware, is Omniscient and Omnipotent. Those alone create issues when considering that people are supposed to have Free Will and able to "choose" the path to God. I can go into more detail if you wish, but those two traits alone on a deity actually make Free Will in the standard contra-causal conception (which when people think of what "Free Will" really is, that's what most people are thinking of) impossible.

The thing in which I love most about the philosophy I study, and what I have learned so far, is that it forces us to be incredibly careful as to what we say, and take for granted as accepted information. (I choose here not to use the word "knowledge" because that is a much stronger word, so I'll have to stick with "accepted information".) If one is being intellectually honest, and following the rules that Logic and Reason has set for us, then we are forced to confront our beliefs which are dissonant with one another, and decide which ones we keep and throw away. This paragraph is my primary basis for my atheistic beliefs; it was logically impossible for me to hold the belief of the existence of a deity with my other assumptions in which the way the universe, the world, and understanding knowledge that leads me to believe that there is no reason to have belief in a deity. (I apologize for the rant.)


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Abish
Post  Post subject: Re: For Abish-Questions about NOM's  |  Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2011 3:28 pm
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Philosoraptor88 wrote:
Why do you believe it is true? I'm just wondering what basis you have of deciphering: What is true in the Book of Mormon vs. What is NOT true in the Book of Mormon
I'd be really curious as to know what method you have of figuring out which parts are true as opposed to which are not.

I just believe that what Spirit teaches me is true. When Spirit tells me:"this is true" I believe. When Spirit tells me nothing I don't know yet should I believe or not. When somebody tells me something I may believe may not depends on integrity of that person.

Philosoraptor88 wrote:
Now that I think about it, I'm actually curious as to why you believe God exists in the first place. What brought you to this belief initially?

Initially it was revelation from God. I was an atheist. If God didn't give me a revelation I would be an atheist till today. I saw angels. But I don't want to talk about. That is why I believe in God.
I will tell you why I use word believe and not "know". Because I believe that what I saw was not hallusinations or anything like that. But I believe it was REAL.
Many times I asked God questions. I got answers by the power of the Holy Ghost. Later I learned those things from different sources. I could say:"WOW! How could I know that? Is it just a coinsidience?" But I BELIEVE it was a revelation from God. I believe that Spirit testifies to me that is the FOUNDATION OF MY FAITH.


Philosoraptor88 wrote:
I have many reasons to show for why I do not believe that the specific christian theistic deity does not exist, but also many others, so I'm curious as to why you believe in the existence of a god, let alone the God in which you believe exists.

I know. I can do the same thing. I was an atheist. So, believe me I understand you very well.
But if you you can do it, we can discuss.
:-)

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Abinadi
Post  Post subject: Re: For Abish-Questions about NOM's  |  Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2011 4:09 pm
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Philosoraptor88, I understand what you are saying. I can accept "free will" only by making a humanistic balance between the "actuality" (hence, "perfection") that is God, and recognizing that everything else is "potentiality", thus in process. [In fact, I see God as "process" rather than "a being".] The omniscience and all that, I only accept in the sense that "Deity" can "know" what is knowable to Deity - in a universe in which there is truly open potential (independent, unpredictable choice), there are some things Deity must not know (if constrained even in some slight way by the passage of time among the potentialities) until they actually [I mean "really" not actually "actually" ;) ] happen. :-)

..... but don't quote me. ;) lol

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Philosoraptor88
Post  Post subject: Re: For Abish-Questions about NOM's  |  Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2011 4:11 pm
Abish wrote:
Philosoraptor88 wrote:
Why do you believe it is true? I'm just wondering what basis you have of deciphering: What is true in the Book of Mormon vs. What is NOT true in the Book of Mormon
I'd be really curious as to know what method you have of figuring out which parts are true as opposed to which are not.

I just believe that what Spirit teaches me is true. When Spirit tells me:"this is true" I believe. When Spirit tells me nothing I don't know yet should I believe or not. When somebody tells me something I may believe may not depends on integrity of that person.

Philosoraptor88 wrote:
Now that I think about it, I'm actually curious as to why you believe God exists in the first place. What brought you to this belief initially?

Initially it was revelation from God. I was an atheist. If God didn't give me a revelation I would be an atheist till today. I saw angels. But I don't want to talk about. That is why I believe in God.
I will tell you why I use word believe and not "know". Because I believe that what I saw was not hallusinations or anything like that. But I believe it was REAL.
Many times I asked God questions. I got answers by the power of the Holy Ghost. Later I learned those things from different sources. I could say:"WOW! How could I know that? Is it just a coinsidience?" But I BELIEVE it was a revelation from God. I believe that Spirit testifies to me that is the FOUNDATION OF MY FAITH.


Philosoraptor88 wrote:
I have many reasons to show for why I do not believe that the specific christian theistic deity does not exist, but also many others, so I'm curious as to why you believe in the existence of a god, let alone the God in which you believe exists.

I know. I can do the same thing. I was an atheist. So, believe me I understand you very well.
But if you you can do it, we can discuss.
:-)



So here we have a very big concern. How do you know what is from the Holy Spirit / Holy Ghost vs. What is just a thought in your head. It seems like that would be incredibly hard to figure out which is which.


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Philosoraptor88
Post  Post subject: Re: For Abish-Questions about NOM's  |  Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2011 4:16 pm
Abinadi wrote:
Philosoraptor88, I understand what you are saying. I can accept "free will" only by making a humanistic balance between the "actuality" (hence, "perfection") that is God, and recognizing that everything else is "potentiality", thus in process. [In fact, I see God as "process" rather than "a being".] The omniscience and all that, I only accept in the sense that "Deity" can "know" what is knowable to Deity - in a universe in which there is truly open potential (independent, unpredictable choice), there are some things Deity must not know (if constrained even in some slight way by the passage of time among the potentialities) until they actually [I mean "really" not actually "actually" ;) ] happen. :-)

..... but don't quote me. ;) lol


Quoted! :P

But seriously though, the standard notion of what "Free Will" is -- and if you would like me to elaborate, I can start a thread on this -- is called "Contra-causal Free Will". Essentially, this idea boils down to the conception that "you can do other than what you are going to do at any given time."

For example: I reach a fork in the road: Route A, or Route B. We will say for the sake of argument that I will pick route A. The problem with having a God who has omniscience and omnipotence (Knowing all facts - omniscience, and The ability to do anything logically possible - omnipotence) is that his existence alone removes our ability to actually make a "choice" between Route A or Route B works, working strictly under a Modus Ponens argument form, using purely deductive reasoning. Like I said, if Abish or you have any questions about this, I can spell this entire idea out. Hell, I wrote one of my most recent papers for my "Philosophy: Reason and Religion" class on this very subject, because I find it interesting.


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Abinadi
Post  Post subject: Re: For Abish-Questions about NOM's  |  Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2011 4:36 pm
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Granted.
I do not believe in a Deity of that sort of "omniscience"
The most important thing in life, to me, is not knowledge, nor do I need or desire an all-knowing deity. A sympathetic one would suffice.
If I am in "God's image", then knowledge may not be what "God" is most concerned about either. :confusion-seeingstars:

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Philosoraptor88
Post  Post subject: Re: For Abish-Questions about NOM's  |  Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2011 4:43 pm
Abinadi wrote:
Granted.
I do not believe in a Deity of that sort of "omniscience"
The most important thing in life, to me, is not knowledge, nor do I need or desire an all-knowing deity. A sympathetic one would suffice.
If I am in "God's image", then knowledge may not be what "God" is most concerned about either. :confusion-seeingstars:


You're more than willing to have your own beliefs in what you think a deity may or may not be like, but what matters in this context is what the masses believe, specifically the religious mass; and what they believe in is the standard theistic conception of God. Omniscience, Omnipotence, Perfectly Loving, and Perfectly Just. The Mormon God, as I was explained both inside and outside of church follows these 4 characteristics.


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Abinadi
Post  Post subject: Re: For Abish-Questions about NOM's  |  Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2011 4:51 pm
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Philosoraptor88, I am replying on a separate thread, Mormon God - omniscient, omnipotent, perfectly loving, perfectly just?


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thews
Post  Post subject: Re: For Abish-Questions about NOM's  |  Posted: Wed Jan 13, 2016 8:04 pm
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Abinadi wrote:
Thanks for expressing your gratitude.


:bump: for the hypocrite known as Liz/jesse pinkman.

I miss you Abinadi... are you still here?

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joseph's myth
Post  Post subject: For Abish-Questions about NOM's  |  Posted: Thu Jan 14, 2016 1:39 am
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thews wrote:
Abinadi wrote:
Thanks for expressing your gratitude.


:bump: for the hypocrite known as Liz/jesse pinkman.

I miss you Abinadi... are you still here?


Yes Abinadi is still here and his heart to try and understand the sometimes desperate needs of LDS members in crisis, is softly sustaining itself here too.

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Abinadi
Post  Post subject: Re: For Abish-Questions about NOM's  |  Posted: Thu Jan 14, 2016 8:02 pm
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Hey there, Thews,
Ain't seen youse
for a bit of time.

Mormonism fades ever so dim in the background past of my life.
So I don't visit even exmormon sites as I once did.
Ah, those were the days, filled with heat and passion,
and cold, hard, pleasant, warm reflection.
And friends.


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thews
Post  Post subject: Re: For Abish-Questions about NOM's  |  Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2016 7:53 pm
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Abinadi wrote:
Hey there, Thews,
Ain't seen youse
for a bit of time.

Mormonism fades ever so dim in the background past of my life.
So I don't visit even exmormon sites as I once did.
Ah, those were the days, filled with heat and passion,
and cold, hard, pleasant, warm reflection.
And friends.

Hey Abinadi, I hope time has served you well. When my daughter was dying of leukemia I had many days and nights spent in the hospital. When she was going through all those chemo treatments and recovering, she would sleep most of the time. One can only search eBay and whatever sites that can pass the hours before the content runs out. It was then that I started really researching Mormonism. Since then I've learned a few things, most notably one cannot argue the factually incorrect arguments with a TBM... they are brainwashed and incapable of rational thought.

To the TBM that has never been taught how to think critically, you and I are nothing more than an "Anti" and the devil speaks through us. Nothing matters regarding the facts. The false prophets will preach the words they long to hear and it's all they need to maintain their faith... they "know" the church is true, even though they don't realize they're nothing more than a broken record regurgitating the same tired mantra for decades. The so-called apologists do nothing more than bait and switch. "Proving" their arguments true is based in some fragmented argument from silence where we supposedly can't prove them false... it's an exercise in futility, as the ones that can be proven false are countered with some convoluted spider's web of distorted logic that's been fed to them and requires a long trip down the rabbit hole..., again, it's all they need.

I work occasionally with two Mormon men that I respect very much. They're nice guys and very intelligent, and while they don't don't know what I do know about Mormonism, it's interesting to me to hear them talk about their lives. At one point I divulged something about my past regarding Mormonism before I knew he was Mormon. I asked him about the curse of Cain and his response was the same tired "it was the error of men and not doctrine" argument, which isn't true. He challenged me to point out the scriptures that referenced it, but I decided to just bow out and talk about something else. It wouldn't matter to him if I took his BOM and highlighted the pages... I already know this. I will been seen as an "anti" if I do (a word my mother uses to describe the criticism of Mormonism).

To a critical thinker, one only needs to find the truth in one of the holes in Mormonism. If polygamy wasn't enough, the fact that there never was an "Urim and Thummim" was always the smoking gun to me (they were in fact Joseph Smith's white and brown seer stones). One could make the smoking gun argument on the curse of Cain, Sarah Whitney, the entire Book of Abraham and the bogus papyrus, glass looking, Jupiter talisman... it just doesn't stop. As long as there are charlatans like Jeff Lindsay and the nut cases at MDB to feed them distortion, it's what they'll accept... again, it's all they need.

In the end I did my best to use truth and logic to make them think, but they can't. It's like asking a devout Christian to consider just how ridiculous the concept of Satan is... they can't, because it's not what fits the mold their brains are formed in. If ignorance is bliss, then I guess ignorance is the key to happiness. Somewhere along the line I guess I just learned to recognize it. Does winning a spelling contest with a retarded person make us the winner? I realize that sounds harsh, but when facts are ignored and an argument from silence or mind numbing prayer can "answer" a question, it's not worth it. It's 4th and 20.

To the ones who know the truth and peddle the lies, I hope karma has special gift for them. If not, none of us will know, so ignorance wins, but only if one isn't intelligent enough to discern fact from fiction.

Good luck in helping those who realize later in life they have been lied to their entire lives... that's who is really helped with this website. It's harsh reality, but a reality not many know. Peace.

_________________
Tim 4:3 For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine..they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.


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Abinadi
Post  Post subject: Re: For Abish-Questions about NOM's  |  Posted: Tue Feb 02, 2016 6:50 pm
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You know what Thews? You just reminded me of two missionaries whose mouths I closed.

They were visiting my Mother. Her home was always open to them, and she invited them to dinner often. One day I happened by as the missionaries were there. They knew I was an apostate. You could see the glare in one sister's eyes. She was angry towards me. She asked something like why don't I believe the Book of Mormon is true, or something like that. I don't remember. It came down to the Fall of Adam and Eve. Was it planned? Did Adam "fall upward" because he already KNEW what he was supposed to do? Mormons say he understood God's commandment not to "eat" the forbidden "fruit". In effect, Satan went to Eve and persuaded her to fall, because he could not persuade Adam to fall. Adam was just too good. So Eve fell. Then Adam did what he did, not as though he were succumbing to the Devil's temptations, but in order to FULFILL God's commandment. God gave two commandments. Eve ruined it for one of them. But if Adam voluntarily "fell upward," he could at least obey one commandment.

But that is not what the Book of Mormon says!

She had a Book of Mormon and handed it to me. "Show me!" she demanded. She scoffed a little as a struggled to find the passage. It is marked in my old copy of the Book of Mormon. But for some reason, it was not marked in hers ( :titter: ). I found a related passage, but it was weak. I turned again to the chapter I thought it was in. There it was. I read it to her. She was starting to lose her cool, and she wasn't that cool-headed to start with.

The Book of Mormon says, so clearly it stings my eyes, (and confounded the poor sister missionaries), that Adam and Eve both were "BEGUILED by the Devil"!

Beguiled! Fooled! Tricked! Into doing something they didn't want to do!
Damned Devil! :icon-twisted:

Eve was fooled into falling.
And Adam was fooled into falling!!

So where's that leave the teachings of the Church on Adam "CHOOSING" to fall?

Either the Book of Mormon is false, or the Church is false.
Or, possibly, both are false. :icon-redface:

So that's where I left them: "The Book of Mormon says they were beguiled by the Devil." That one sister missionary glared at me again, lips tightly closed. She was really mad at me, but didn't say a thing. :eusa-violin:

Cheers! Image

By the way, you might be interested in another site where Mormons sometimes post.
forums.catholic.com. Their non-Catholic religions section is at http://forums.catholic.com/forumdisplay.php?f=14. There are a couple of well-educated (philosophy, religion) Mormons there, and some highly educated and reasoning Catholics. I suppose most of the posts relate to Protestantism generally, or to Lutheranism, Islam, others. I think when you join you have to state your religion. That might limit where you can post. But you can read in all the forums. I follow some of the threads. Some get a little heated, some get a little thread-worn (hey, is that a pun!?), some are very informative. . . . just in case you want to give it a try.


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thews
Post  Post subject: Re: For Abish-Questions about NOM's  |  Posted: Tue Feb 02, 2016 8:00 pm
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Abinadi wrote:
Cheers! Image

By the way, you might be interested in another site where Mormons sometimes post.
forums.catholic.com. Their non-Catholic religions section is at http://forums.catholic.com/forumdisplay.php?f=14. There are a couple of well-educated (philosophy, religion) Mormons there, and some highly educated and reasoning Catholics. I suppose most of the posts relate to Protestantism generally, or to Lutheranism, Islam, others. I think when you join you have to state your religion. That might limit where you can post. But you can read in all the forums. I follow some of the threads. Some get a little heated, some get a little thread-worn (hey, is that a pun!?), some are very informative. . . . just in case you want to give it a try.

Thanks Abinadi, but my debate days are over for the most part... it really doesn't matter. People that are brainwashed believe what they want to believe, or (more succinctly), what they're told (instructed) to believe. Just like the sister in your story who was mad at you. She was mad at you because you threatened what she "knows" to be true. If you are correct, then she is wrong and her faith is also wrong, which can't happen if one "knows" the church is true. You then represent an intentional distortion of facts and you do so because you are inherently evil with bad intent.

It's odd really. As we get older perspective changes. I remember being told that because I was chosen to be a Mormon and was so blessed, if I rejected it, I would pay a tremendous price... eternal darkness. I remember being reserved about voicing my decision, as if I kept it to myself, it wouldn't be so permanent and maybe I could avoid the punishment if I was wrong. I then concluded the fear of eternal darkness for acknowledging what I truly didn't believe was really stupid. If I'm wrong, then I'll get what I deserve. If God thinks I deserve to be cast into eternal nothingness for not believing in something, then God is an evil demon and I'm better off. The entire concept of God being held in check by some evil demon he created (Satan) is foolish... it makes no sense to fear what you've been instructed to fear.

Life is so much more meaningful when one loses the fear of God. It's ok... be wrong. Sundays trapped in some mind screw for 4 hours is actually hell. I do believe in God as I "know" something cannot come from nothing, but I also "know" that I really don't "know" anything about God or his/her intent... I'm good with that.

_________________
Tim 4:3 For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine..they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.


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joseph's myth
Post  Post subject: For Abish-Questions about NOM's  |  Posted: Wed Feb 03, 2016 9:27 am
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thews wrote:
...my debate days are over for the most part... it really doesn't matter. People that are brainwashed believe what they want to believe, or (more succinctly), what they're told (instructed) to believe. Just like the sister in your story who was mad at you. She was mad at you because you threatened what she "knows" to be true. If you are correct, then she is wrong and her faith is also wrong, which can't happen if one "knows" the church is true. You then represent an intentional distortion of facts and you do so because you are inherently evil with bad intent.

It's odd really. As we get older perspective changes. I remember being told that because I was chosen to be a Mormon and was so blessed, if I rejected it, I would pay a tremendous price... eternal darkness. I remember being reserved about voicing my decision, as if I kept it to myself, it wouldn't be so permanent and maybe I could avoid the punishment if I was wrong. I then concluded the fear of eternal darkness for acknowledging what I truly didn't believe was really stupid. If I'm wrong, then I'll get what I deserve. If God thinks I deserve to be cast into eternal nothingness for not believing in something, then God is an evil demon and I'm better off. The entire concept of God being held in check by some evil demon he created (Satan) is foolish... it makes no sense to fear what you've been instructed to fear.

Life is so much more meaningful when one loses the fear of God. It's ok... be wrong. Sundays trapped in some mind screw for 4 hours is actually hell. I do believe in God as I "know" something cannot come from nothing, but I also "know" that I really don't "know" anything about God or his/her intent... I'm good with that.


Odd, my debate days have seemed to dwindle. Still doesn't mean you can't try and seek meaning in great works provided by maybe the best writers and speakers out there.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MtUrPNe ... ata_player

_________________
God of Poly-Folly Folly

{If you believe in things that you don't understand, then you suffer ~Stevie Wonder}
.................. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekkkD8HU944
........................ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekkkD8HU944
.................. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekkkD8HU944


God of Poly-Folly Folly


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