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pettifogger
Post  Post subject: Currently being recruited by missionaries  |  Posted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 11:10 am
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Should I get out now before it is too late?

Just finished reading 2nd Nephi.

Everything seems so good so far. Attended by first service last Sunday (General Conference).

My two missionaries are coming over tonight at 8 PM CST.


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joseph's myth
Post  Post subject: Currently being recruited by missionaries  |  Posted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 11:38 am
God of Poly-Folly

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pettifogger wrote:
Should I get out now before it is too late?

Just finished reading 2nd Nephi.

Everything seems so good so far. Attended my first service last Sunday
(General Conference).

My two missionaries are coming over tonight at 8 PM CST.


Can I come over, please please please? OmG!

_________________
God of Poly-Folly Folly

{If you believe in things that you don't understand, then you suffer ~Stevie Wonder}
.................. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekkkD8HU944
........................ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekkkD8HU944
.................. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekkkD8HU944


God of Poly-Folly Folly


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pettifogger
Post  Post subject: Re: Currently being recruited by missionaries  |  Posted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 12:25 pm
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I'd be happy if you came over tonight!

I live in Columbia MO.

Never read the Book of Mormon before.

I don't see baptism in my future but the missionaries seem like nice kids.

Scheduled to go back to church again on Sunday (April 9).


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productofchoice
Post  Post subject: Re: Currently being recruited by missionaries  |  Posted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 2:17 pm
God

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Hi Pettifogger,

There are some odd things mentioned in the BoM that aren't historically correct. Horses, elephants, silk, coins, iron, steel, chariots, concrete, honey bees, wheat and barley, steel helmets, steel swords, steel breastplates and more. This isn't one thing that's messed up, it's a lot of things that didn't exist in the Americas before Europeans brought it there. And then there's the DNA issues with the natives ... they are almost exclusively Mongolian, not of middle-eastern descent. They are not the literal descendants of a few Hebrews who wondered or sailed to the Americas.

There are some other goodies in the BoM. 2Nephi 29 has some things to say about the Bible. Mormons put Modern prophets over the Book of Mormon which is a rank in their minds over the Bible. If there is a disagreement, the Bible looses. They also will say that many plain and precious things were removed but cannot and have not clearly marked in their Bible even what the corrupt parts are. Nor are they willing to admit (are they aware even?) that they have thousands of corrections to the Book of Mormon.

For example, 2Nephi31-33 talks about Baptism and the Holy Spirit being given following baptism. Nephi recommends this to the people. The year is about 550 BC. Jesus hasn't been born yet so how could the people follow His example and how could they be given the Holy Spirit when almost 600 years later Jesus said that He had to go so the Holy Spirit could come? (John 16:7) In context there is a problem. Do you reject the Bible or the Book of Mormon?

But it goes farther. Joseph Smith "Translated" (meaning changed without looking at the source languages) the Bible and could have removed or changed this verse in John 16:7 ... but he didn't. Likewise there is a problem in the Joseph Smith history related to this. In the Joseph Smith history:
<quote="Joseph Smith History Verse 41">41 He also quoted the second chapter of Joel, from the twenty-eighth verse to the last. He also said that this was not yet fulfilled, but was soon to be. ... </quote>
What's the issue here? That the second chapter of Joel is quoted in Acts 2 by Peter when the day of Pentacost came and the spirit was poured out.
So here the Book of Mormon claims it happened nearly 600 years too soon and the Joseph Smith history says it didn't happen yet (in the 1800s). So when did it happen?

Mormon Think has an article on the Book of Mormon problems, it's a handy read with lots of info.

And there's so much more.

Peace

PS, if you watched the South Park episode on the Mormons, that's exactly how the Book of Mormon was "Translated" ... Joseph took a rock that he found while digging a well and placed it in a hat and held the hat over his face to block out the light. Staring into the darkness he recited the book to his scribes.

_________________
I resigned from the Church of THE Jesus Christ of the Latter Day Saints (Feb 2011)

"For nothing is secret, that shall not be made manifest; neither any thing hid, that shall not be known and come abroad." - Luke 8:17


Last edited by productofchoice on Wed Apr 05, 2017 3:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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joseph's myth
Post  Post subject: Currently being recruited by missionaries  |  Posted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 3:23 pm
God of Poly-Folly

Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2008 2:29 pm
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pettifogger wrote:
I'd be happy if you came over tonight!

I live in Columbia MO.

Never read the Book of Mormon before.

I don't see baptism in my future but the missionaries seem like nice kids.

Scheduled to go back to church again on Sunday (April 9).


I'll be there in spirit, tell em both Joey wanted to meet em. I'm one of your new acquaintances, if they ask. You know, FaceBook, internet's still working fine as are smartphones too, lol.

Tell them you know why he spoke and others wrote in their own handwriting! Joseph already was convicted in the state of New York, he wasn't about to create the evidence that nearly got him hung for promoting glasslooking.

Heh, you're having fun now!

_________________
God of Poly-Folly Folly

{If you believe in things that you don't understand, then you suffer ~Stevie Wonder}
.................. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekkkD8HU944
........................ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekkkD8HU944
.................. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekkkD8HU944


God of Poly-Folly Folly


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richkelsey.org
Post  Post subject: Re: Currently being recruited by missionaries  |  Posted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 3:27 pm
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God of Elves, Seer Stones and a Hat

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pettifogger wrote:
Should I get out now before it is too late?

Just finished reading 2nd Nephi.

Everything seems so good so far. Attended by first service last Sunday (General Conference).

My two missionaries are coming over tonight at 8 PM CST.

pettifogger.

Before the missionaries come over tonight, please take the time to read my latest FHE lesson: http://richkelsey.org/lds_fhe_lesson6.html

It provides the answers you are seeking. Then, perhaps you could read the missionaries the first LDS study in my LDS series: http://richkelsey.org/book_of_mormon.htm

I did just that in the summer of 2014, one of the missionaries had trouble digesting the truth contained in the study, the other one seemed unaffected.

I suggest reading both works before joining the Church.

Welcome to the board.

_________________
My LDS Series:
http://www.richkelsey.org/lds_index.html
Rich Kelsey


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Melanie
Post  Post subject: Re: Currently being recruited by missionaries  |  Posted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 4:22 pm
myself

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Hello, It's probably best not to join. You are not seeing baptism in your future anyhow so seems like you already know that. Did you enjoy conference? You can take the good without any commitment and when the Elders know that you don't want to be baptised they will stop calling anyhow. They are nice kids. Glad you dropped by, welcome :)

_________________
Why leave? http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... 989OOSOycw
How to heal? http://media.blubrry.com/mormonexpressi ... ion225.mp3


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pettifogger
Post  Post subject: Re: Currently being recruited by missionaries  |  Posted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 4:28 pm
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Thank all of you for your timely responses.

I'm male, 57 and met my missionaries on the street about 2 weeks ago.

I invited them over to discuss religion.

These kids (missionaries) don't seem to have taken a course on comparative religions. I've had to explain the difference between Sunni and Shia Muslims and haven't even bothered to discuss Sufi Muslims!

The kids don't seem to understand reformed or orthodox Judaism. How do you send people this young out as "elders" when they don't know the tenets of other faiths?

I'm interested in learning everything about the Mormon faith even though I consider myself a poor target for conversion.

Any insight would be greatly appreciated.


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Melanie
Post  Post subject: Re: Currently being recruited by missionaries  |  Posted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 4:44 pm
myself

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Hi! They are called Elder because of the authority they carry from the Melchizedek priesthood. You can research that! They are not there to discuss really, they have a structure of information that they needs must share with their investigators, it is all very organised and formalised. But they are nice kids and quite skilled in social interactions but it is worth remembering that they are on a mission and that mission is the focus. It is interesting to me that a local Elder recently told me that they are there to help people come unto Christ and that that was more important than having people baptised. This is refreshing, albeit they understand Jesus and God in a very different way, it is still refreshing for an experienced ear whilst I should think being mightily confusing for those not versed in LDS doctrine.

Mormonthink website would be of interest to you, I am sure. http://www.mormonthink.com/

Cheers.

_________________
Why leave? http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... 989OOSOycw
How to heal? http://media.blubrry.com/mormonexpressi ... ion225.mp3


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Rainfeather
Post  Post subject: Re: Currently being recruited by missionaries  |  Posted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 6:12 pm
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It's weird for me to read a report like that, because if I could go back and do it all over again, I'd have run in the other direction and never been baptized in the first place.

They took my money and my time and I can't ever get that back. They gave me nothing but lies and false promises.

_________________
"A mind stretched by a new idea can never go back to its original dimensions." - Oliver Wendell Holmes


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joseph's myth
Post  Post subject: Currently being recruited by missionaries  |  Posted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 2:27 am
God of Poly-Folly

Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2008 2:29 pm
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pettifogger wrote:
Thank all of you for your timely responses.

I'm male, 57 and met my missionaries on the street about 2 weeks ago.

I invited them over to discuss religion.

These kids (missionaries) don't seem to have taken a course on comparative religions. I've had to explain the difference between Sunni and Shia Muslims and haven't even bothered to discuss Sufi Muslims!

The kids don't seem to understand reformed or orthodox Judaism. How do you send people this young out as "elders" when they don't know the tenets of other faiths?

I'm interested in learning everything about the Mormon faith even though I consider myself a poor target for conversion.

Any insight would be greatly appreciated.


Of course you're considered poor of candidacy, but to be a breathing human showing interest gave them the green light to launch their attack strategies. That'll be the engaging conversation, flip chart to video procurement called LDS Emotionalism, followed by the heartfelt hungry puppy eyes presentation and sale. (HeartSell, video production co.) And then the obligatory Mormon missionary testimony, sometimes you get two.

Advanced and progressive Mormon missionaries now can be given permission to fly by the seat of their pants so to speak, it's more of a 'Fly By Wire' circus where a more candid approach leaves you walking away feeling very dirty, like you need a shower. You'll know when you've had that exposure!

Uugghh, now you've gone and done it. Ha Ha, let us all know...

_________________
God of Poly-Folly Folly

{If you believe in things that you don't understand, then you suffer ~Stevie Wonder}
.................. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekkkD8HU944
........................ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekkkD8HU944
.................. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekkkD8HU944


God of Poly-Folly Folly


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pettifogger
Post  Post subject: Re: Currently being recruited by missionaries  |  Posted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 7:57 am
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I'm totally new at this BUT I'll give you a quick take on my perception(s) so far.

Paraphrasing JFK:

"Ask not what Mormonism can do for you...but what can you do for Mormonism."

I sense that the ideal candidates for the missionaries are not wretched sinners in need of salvation. The ideal candidates are those who are looking for structure in their lives. By structure, I don't mean a temple. :angelic-flying:

The kids have given me three pamphlets:


The Restoration of the Gospel of Jesus Christ

The Plan of Salvation

The Gospel of Jesus Christ


I must admit the concept of a pre-earth life was totally new to me. I never saw myself as a spirit child before conception.


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teoma2
Post  Post subject: Re: Currently being recruited by missionaries  |  Posted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 8:26 am
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Neither did your parents when they engaged in sex and created you in the process.

_________________
"When authority masquerades as a power, a simple question will unmask it."

"Just because you think, feel, or believe something is true, doesn't make it true!"

"The doubt of your faith, is not God testing you, but truth trying to emerge and free you."


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productofchoice
Post  Post subject: Re: Currently being recruited by missionaries  |  Posted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 9:16 am
God

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For those who want to follow along, these are links to the pamphlets on the LDS web site:

The Restoration of the Gospel of Jesus Christ
https://www.lds.org/bc/content/ldsorg/c ... f?lang=eng

The Plan of Salvation
https://www.lds.org/bc/content/ldsorg/c ... f?lang=eng

The Gospel of Jesus Christ
https://www.lds.org/bc/content/ldsorg/c ... f?lang=eng

_________________
I resigned from the Church of THE Jesus Christ of the Latter Day Saints (Feb 2011)

"For nothing is secret, that shall not be made manifest; neither any thing hid, that shall not be known and come abroad." - Luke 8:17


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productofchoice
Post  Post subject: Re: Currently being recruited by missionaries  |  Posted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 9:36 am
God

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WRT a restored gospel, It's interesting to think about what it's restored back to. In many ways it's a perversion of the Mosaic law IMO. It's putting people back under a law and back into the temple and priesthood hierarchy.

Where Really, Jesus was a transitional revolutionary bringing a new system and a new way. Jesus is the one that tore the temple veil giving free access, The LDS have sewn back up the veil and setup strict requirements to enter. Jesus sent the spirit to believers and Mormons think that the "helper" only helps you when you are doing good, not when you need it most in those dark places you might go. Jesus is the one who baptizes with fire and the spirt and yet LDS are stuck on the criticality of a water baptism.

Oh and Paul ... Paul spoke of many things that the LDS reject and ignore. Paul teaches of Grace. Paul ... is he one of those people who came in and corrupted the early church? Or is Paul the one that got it and explained what Jesus accomplished? Where do you stand on that Elders? And if Paul is trusted, look at what Paul says to you because Paul went out teaching Gentiles and most of us are Gentiles by birth. Paul records the power of the spirit flowing among believers who are behaving pretty badly. It's Paul that teaches Grace so radically that people accuse him of trying to encourage people to sin. Has a Mormon ever been accused of that?

Consider what the book of Hebrews says about the Temple and the High Priest, etc. If the temple represented the body of Jesus then the multiple temples is polytheism.

And while on the comparative religion discussion, consider the Book of Mormon. Do these people act like good Jews? Are they allowed to build altars and offer sacrifices in such unconventional ways? Are they keeping the holy days? Where is this footprint in their writings (not to mention relics of the era)?

LDS, Stop trying to restore what was fulfilled by Jesus!

Gal 2:21 wrote:
I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.


And feel free to read that in context as well.


Peace

_________________
I resigned from the Church of THE Jesus Christ of the Latter Day Saints (Feb 2011)

"For nothing is secret, that shall not be made manifest; neither any thing hid, that shall not be known and come abroad." - Luke 8:17


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pettifogger
Post  Post subject: Re: Currently being recruited by missionaries  |  Posted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 1:42 pm
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Early in my recruitment I googled "mormon missionaries rules."

This was my initial introduction to the "White Bible" or Missionary Handbook.

After reviewing the rules for these kids, I really felt sorry for them. That's why I told them I would go to church with them.

These kids are really under strict control for 2 years.


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pettifogger
Post  Post subject: Re: Currently being recruited by missionaries  |  Posted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 1:51 pm
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Authorship of Book of Mormon

What is the best evidence? Was it totally a creation of Joseph Smith or was it done as a project in conjunction with others?

What is the probability that Joseph Smith suffered from some type of mental disorder?


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joseph's myth
Post  Post subject: Currently being recruited by missionaries  |  Posted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 2:26 pm
God of Poly-Folly

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pettifogger wrote:
Authorship of Book of Mormon

What is the best evidence? Was it totally a creation of Joseph Smith or was it done as a project in conjunction with others?

What is the probability that Joseph Smith suffered from some type of mental disorder?


Bum leg from almost having it amputated due to an infection gave a lot of incentives for Joseph Smith to create ways to try and make some income without relying on physical strength or endurance. The authorship study done by Craig Criddle says he plagiarized nearly all of everything he produced.

The unexpected death of his older brother seems to have set a lot of things into motion. Most likely Joseph places the vision he had at a date before his brother dies, for reasons we can only speculate to try and understand. We do know it was a life changing event for the Smith family. The brother was accidentally poisoned by doctors.

Joseph Smith "dissociation disorder" may be found on YouTube through Heart Of The Matter, and Shawn McCraney if you care to look.

https://youtu.be/Zm2m5D9MkpY
(Part I of 2)

_________________
God of Poly-Folly Folly

{If you believe in things that you don't understand, then you suffer ~Stevie Wonder}
.................. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekkkD8HU944
........................ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekkkD8HU944
.................. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekkkD8HU944


God of Poly-Folly Folly


Last edited by joseph's myth on Thu Apr 06, 2017 2:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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productofchoice
Post  Post subject: Re: Currently being recruited by missionaries  |  Posted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 2:46 pm
God

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pettifogger wrote:
Authorship of Book of Mormon

What is the best evidence? Was it totally a creation of Joseph Smith or was it done as a project in conjunction with others?

What is the probability that Joseph Smith suffered from some type of mental disorder?


My opinion is that he was actually very intelligent. That he had help from some trusted friends who were in on the scam, to make some money. The timeframe that is presented for the translation of the BoM ignores the time between when the manuscript was supposedly finished and when the first edition was printed. There is time inbetween for refinement of the text.

The book, "View of the Hebrews" fits the plot of the Book of Mormon quite well and would likely have been available to Joseph. There are a couple of other books written in much the same style. These can be analyzed by programs that look for plagiarism in student's essays/papers for example and help identify if it's likely that the writing style matches the writing style of another source. More on this can be read on MormonThink here.

There are also sections that seem like they were local sermons or political talks and then added to the BoM because of the subjects that are discussed. He answered some of the key questions of the day WRT political systems, the presence of life in the Americas vs Noah's global flood and what happened to the lost tribes.

So he was smart; He gathered material, produced a story and sold it ... and he knew how to play the con.

Peace

_________________
I resigned from the Church of THE Jesus Christ of the Latter Day Saints (Feb 2011)

"For nothing is secret, that shall not be made manifest; neither any thing hid, that shall not be known and come abroad." - Luke 8:17


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Melanie
Post  Post subject: Re: Currently being recruited by missionaries  |  Posted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 3:10 pm
myself

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-VKT4hrBTuk

This is very good I think.

_________________
Why leave? http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... 989OOSOycw
How to heal? http://media.blubrry.com/mormonexpressi ... ion225.mp3


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